Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[karimw]

My current SP flock:

















1 hen, 10 pullets, 3 cockerels.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

One of the things I have learned this year, is the more I keep my line progressing, the more odd birds crop up out of it. We still don't really know what we have. And in my opinion, neither did the original hatchery breeders.

I think the question here about the odd colored chicks is whether they were introduced by the leghorn breeding Ideal added to the Iowa Blue or if a particular chick color is documented historically.

I think any chick color that was not listed as a possible coloration in our historical data (at least by a couple of past breeders), should be met with exterme scrutiny and probably is best left to a sideline project in the breeding pens. Any chick coloration that is documented historically should be met with more than just a sideline project.

Concerning the choc, mulberry colored, and the somkeys (particularly the smokey with brown heads) they are listed historically, and have shown up in both the Kari McKay-Widdel and Sandhill lines. And therefore, concidering how close the Birchen coloration is to the darker silver penciled, it seems like a logical understanding of how Ideal felt they could solidify them as a Birchen. If only they had kept their hands off of this breed, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.........

I guess it boils down to this. Do we want the breed to breed true to their created type, or not? If we want to preserve and maintain the breed in its original form then we need to transition the Birchens into a lighter form of the Grey standard. If we want to forge our own understanding of the breed's identity, and in this case deviating from the original form, then we leave the Birchen alone, save for maybe changing the name so as not to confuse the judges.

If only Glenn had never sold his Iowa Blues to Ideal. He laments that dicision every time I meet with him, and I'm beginning to share the same sentiments.....Oh well, what's done is done. If nothing else, it's fun to share ideas. Especially when there are differences of opinion. It seems after a conclusion is met, we generally have a much stronger breed focus in the end.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

But the smutty brownish black bird is not pretty to look at. If nothing else, they need to be pretty, Clean up the brown and these birds will be lovely

If they had less black on them, the grey could come out more and there wouldn't be a brown smutty look to them. They'd be a nice dark grey color without the brown. The black melanizers just give a "coverin" so to speak over the grey markings and then they look like that smutty color. They are SO close to the darker version of the original bird. Close, but no Cigar, as the old saying goes.........I agree with you, they aren't near as pretty as either a solid black with birchen markings or a dark grey penciled type of bird. They are sitting inbetween to the colors. A progression from light to dark would look like this, Silver Grey, Silver Penciled, a "light Grey", The Browm Smutty birds like what's pictured above, then Birchen.

I don't want anyone to think I'm anti-Birchen. I find that coloration to be one of my favorites! I just question their legitimacy within our breed. I wouldn't be such a stick in the mud if the origianl color types were already in good footing and had stong followings. But they don't. It sort of rubs me wrong to think we're spending so much support, time, money, and promotion of a variety that was created to facilitate a hatchery's financial bottom line. Especially when we have two original varieties that are (while at least acknowledged by the club) are in a sideline, non-priority situation. I would think as a club we'd want to ensure that all three of the original types were in stong footing before we'd want to spend time, energy, and resources promoting a modern variety. Maybe that's really more the concern I have than the Birchen vs. a Light Grey pattern.........

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

By the way Kari, your SP flock is BEAUTIFUL!!!!

 

[ottbjumper06]

Sorry to be blunt but this is what I'm reading: for the birchen we are deciding whether to go with the "original" look or the "modern" look? Ive been studying the Standard ever since the meeting and it calls for a black bird. This may have already been brought up but I'd just like to point it out. I'm still on the fence about which way to go, but I agree, there should only be 2 varieties at this time to present to the APA as our breed. Food for thought

 

[Jake Levi]

That is a beautiful flock Kari ! Great looking pens too.

The more colors that we have the more problems,the number of problems equals times the number of colors.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

The concern isn't the original birchen vs. modern birchen. The concern is the three original types (which doesn't include the birchen in technical sense) vs. 1 original type and 1 non traditional type. I personally don't think we should submit the birchen as one of the Iowa Blue varieties. I think we should patition the APA to accept the Silver Penciled only at this time. And we as a club work of the Silver Grey and the Grey patterns as the existed in the original flocks. Once we have the breeder numbers to where we can admit them we would then move forward with those. After, and only after, those three original types are in would be work on adding the birchen coloration.

There is concern about "too many" varities. This isn't the case at all!!! I think we should focus first on the Silver Penciled, and petition it only when we summit the Iowa Blue to the APA. I would then like to see the club put its resources to bringing the Silver Grey and the Grey birds to safe populations, and then pursue any extra effort available to non historic types. I've been talking to Alison from the ALBC about this situation and her advice was just that. Leave the Birchen alone until the origianl types have a secure footing in the breeding pens, and in the overall breed population.

Phil Sponenburg's (who operates the genetic breeding plans when the ALBC rescues rare and inbred breeds) advice was exactly the same. It's this very thing (all the outside types and breeding) that have given our breed the "cold shoulder", as people and potential breeders question our motives when we aren't representing the breed in it's origianl and historic forms. Phil Shank (a poultry man very involved with showing and used to judge shows that exhibited Iowa Blues in the past) asked me a question once that really cut to the chase. "Why would you want to raise a breed that's been dead for over a decade?" That's how it's viewed, as dead. The only way we can prove it isn't is to have it in its original forms and types. When we don't, it seems to invalidade our work and our integrity.

It seems the general concensus is that three original varieties is too many varieties, however two varieties is not. If that be the case, I can accept that. And I'll leave the issue alone.

On to other concerns. When I compare my Ideal line birds to the Sandhill line birds that I have, it's becoming clear that these birds are WAY TOO different....and I don't quite know how our standard is going to allow for the Sandhill birds to fit in. This is also giving me much concern about the standard we've put together. It seems maybe we've jumped the gun somewhat in our efforts and excitement. The biggest difference is size. I have 3 month old Sandhill and Ideal line birds. My SH cockerels average 3.75 lbs, pullets 3.25 pounds and my Ideal cockerels have been coming in at 2-2.25 lbs and pullets at 1.75-2 pounds. The SH's are twice the size!!! Their faces are different in shape, round but very "hawk" like in look. Like you don't want to mess with them..... The backs are VERY long and level, which is different than the Ideal line. When you see them side by side, the leghorn blood that was added by Ideal becomes extremely obvious.... again, this makes me wonder if we're doing the right thing here..........

I wonder if we need to just say "hey, the breed is dead, and we're working on resurrecting a breed similar to the original and we're going to call it by the same name." In that case, we can ignore the historical significance and breed patterns, and really forge ahead in anyway we think meets our fancy as a group........That may be the best way to forge ahead from this point. Thoughts?

I'm glad that others are sharing their ideas, even when they are very different from my own. This is good discussion.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

.

 

[ottbjumper06]

Ok, now I'm a little confused again. Can I see pics of the Silver Grey and Grey varieties please?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Maybe what would be best is to continue the course we're currently on with the Birchen and Silver Penciled and leave them alone. And we can just work as a club to recognize flocks that would breed the more traditional type and flocks that would be breeding strictly to the Standard. Every breed has those showring and "production" type of flocks within their ranks, and each has a specific purpose for the breed's vitality. Take the Rhode Island Red for instance. There are the "showring" RIR and then there are the traditional functional type. This allows for those who are interested in having a breed to show to have the type they want for showing, and it allows for those who want a more traditional Iowa Blue to continue within the historical pattern. Then we could embrace both theologies without requiring the club to have to make a dicision of which type/color/variety to keep or leave behind..................

We could have a page on our website describing the different directions a flock can go.