Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

Quote:
In a round about way this is what I was trying to get to. Connie, great job. By classifying the breed into these three variations, the Grey, Mealy Grey, and Silver Grey we accomidate almost perfectly both philosophies. Each of these colors are difficult to perfect and there will always be lighter and darker variances within each of these colorations, but by having the three descriptions, we can limit the total number of color varieties while at the same time allowing for the natural variances of each of those color varieties to still be expressed in the overall breed population.
While the Standard for Grey is darker than the darker version of the Iowa Blue (as it was originally), this Grey Standard would allow those who want a black bird, to have that black bird, while those interested in maintianing the traditinal "Grey" version of the Iowa Blue to breed them with a little more lacing and shafting. They wouldn't be fit for the showring, but they would still fit the overall variety classification (namely, Grey) and would fit the traditional color variety. This is a brilliant idea Connie. And I agree with you, that we need to make sure our variety name fits the actual variety we are trying to breed for if we are going to be taken seriously in the showring and the with the judges, and ultimately the APA.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Dan! If only you could see my flock! I've been hatching out Silver Penciled chicks in the ratios of 5 cockerels to 1 pullet, 4 cockerels to 2 pullets, 7 cockerels to 2 pullets...........and it seems to never end!!!! hahahahaha At least I'll have a lot to choose from and should make the process of improvement that much faster.

 

[karimw]

Ok, I'm trying to catch up and keep everything said straight. I have no idea where Curt is coming from, I think he changed his mind 3 times in as many days!

Anyway, I have a couple things I want you all to consider. First, what do you think of when people say they got their birds from a hatchery? Take the average Barred Plymouth Rock for instance. You might think the birds will be affordable and productive, but you would also find they are inconsistent in color, pattern, type and size. They don't match the Standard except in the most general of terms and they don't reliably hatch chicks similar to themselves. It will take many generations to improve these birds to a show quality specimen. Of course people generally don't do this. If they want SQ they buy from a breeder. Now tell me. Can you see the difference in these birds? Which one would you prefer in your coop?





The Iowa Blue was hatchery bird. They were developed and promoted by hatcheries. Each hatchery would have had their own stock and repopulated their pen with leftovers from their production stock. Curt, when you visited Sandhill, how many birds were in his flock? How many young birds did he have growing out so he could select the best to keep as replacements? If I recall, not many. Sandhill is a hatchery with a LOT of breeds. They need to produce and sell chicks to stay open. We all know Glenn lost his flock. He rekindled his line from hatchery chicks and from that narrow gene pool he started over. His line is unique because he know what to select for, but it is really no different from the Hatchery stock that the rest of us started with. They vary greatly in type and do not reproduce consistently. You get many sub varieties from the same crosses. They are Hatchery birds.

This leads to my second main point. If we choose to pursue entry into the APA we need a bird that looks like a SHOW BIRD. It must be gorgeous to look at and stand out in the show coop. I think the penciling SHOULD be clean and precise, not fragmented and spotty looking. I think black should be BLACK. Not dusky or mealy. You can't look at the birds we have now and say this is what the standard should be. It doesn't matter to the APA what they looked like 50 years ago. We have an idea of what Iowa Blues looked like with very different descriptions, but it is still considered a lost breed. So far there are no existing flocks of the original bloodlines.

So where do you want the breed to go? Do you want to restore the breed to it's original hatchery quality? Or are we trying to make them into something worthy of entry into the APA?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I'm very involved in the horse world and have been part of many clubs, and I have NEVER seen any one group of people act so nicely and welcoming towards each other. I think the reason is that there is no "real" competition among this group, but whatever it is, it is such a nice breath of fresh air to see people discussing something so civilized (keep in mind most horse people are crazy, including me

) and keeping debates from becoming heated. I have never had good experiences with clubs for whatever reason, but this one is completely different and I just want to say thank you guys for welcoming everyone to the club that come its way. The Iowa Blue breed is sure to go far with this wonderful group of people

.

I couldn't agree with you more on this Emily! It's nice to be able to talk about where each of us wants to see the breed go, to champion our ideas and thoughts, and know that we aren't going to be belittled, or ridiculed for having those ideas. It's nice to be able to share an idea even when you know that there may be some who will totally disagree with you. And even better, its fantastic when they do disagree with you and they share their reasons as to why they disagree without getting personal or malicious in the process. Never have I experienced a group of people (in the animal-breed-club-world) that can have a discussion about such different breeding approaches like we are having at this very moment in such a civil way. It requires that everyone understands that everyone has the best interest for the breed in their heart, even when their approach to the breed, breeding, varieties, are different than our own, we have to recognize that their opinion is just as important to the breed as our own.

In a lot of ways it's like our Founding Fathers. They had different ways about how to set up a government, but the first thing they recognized about eachother was that each person there was equally important to the organization (and success) of the whole, and each person's ideas were equally important. And look what they accomplished! So long as we keep that same mentality, that each of us is just as important to the breed's survival, and the ideas of each of us are equally important, then this breed will not only survive, but flourish!!!

 

[Hurley]

These are good points, and highlight that we need to decide what we feel an ideal bird should be.

In regards to Birchen vs. Gray (the main thing that I personally think should be changed), Gray allows for more variability, yes, but most noticeably it allows for more lacing on the breast of the birds, which I (can only speak for myself) wish to preserve and improve on in future generations. I envision a black bird with striking heavy white head and neck lacing, and thinner lacing running ventrally over the breast and back of neck. This, to me, would be a very striking hen and that's what I'm looking forward to in the future. When reading the two standards, Birchen and Gray, Birchen seems to be very particular that the white should not extend too far down...it's a big sticking point with them, from what I've read from other breeds with Birchen and what makes a good Birchen. That was the main sticking point, too, on the comments from the judges at the show. Gray, in their minds, is basically birchen with more lacing on the breast.

On the Silver Penciled, if we are wanting to breed towards this variety looking like every other silver penciled bird, then we should probably remove the mealy references from the standard and make them a true silver penciled variety. I'm not against it, they are very pretty. I just think if we call them SP, then we have to be prepared to make them SP, which they aren't yet, and accept that we have subpar birds until breeding catches up with the standard. Nothing wrong with this, we just need to be clear what we want our ideal Iowa Blue to be.

On the Silver Duckwing, I prefer Silver Gray mostly because I find "Duckwing" to be an ugly sounding term for a pretty bird, no other reason. They're equivalent.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Here are some pictures to give everyone an idea of the three varieties that Connie was talking about. Keep in mind these are "rough" pictures of birds that have not been "refined" within their respective coloration. And also keep in mind that the Iowa Blue has some sudtle differences from these pics. They are just for educational purposes only.

Grey- Our birds don't exhibit this much lacing, however the Standard does call for more than what these picks show.






Mealy Grey - Our birds are a little whiter than these pics show, but are definately this pattern more than a true Silver Penciled. These pics came from the American Old English Bantam website. We have then in the States, but they have not had a standard written yet for this coloration.



Silver Grey - Our hens are MUCH lighter than these hens, but they are definately the same overall pattern.





One of Kari's hens and cockerels to compare with the ones above.....

 

[WVDan44]

Send a few of those boys my way! I might have a few in this first hatch. I am hoping for some sps (mealies) in the group LOL. I'm saving more eggs for the bator which I will probably fire up in about a week, causing me to potentially have two hatchings within two weeks. I will definitely be attending some swaps this fall to introduce the breed in my area.

 

[Hurley]

There really isn't a standard for what we have. The Mealy Gray birds of the breeds I've been able to find are more homogeneous in coloration on the caudal 2/3 of the bird whereas ours do have more (disorganized, but present) patterning. Same goes for the Silver Gray/Silver Duckwings - they typically don't have the degree of patterning we've been getting. That's part (to me) of what makes the IB pattern and IB pattern. Point being, there is no perfect color variation standard for our SP and SDW varieties, which means we can choose what we want to refer to them as. The Birchen vs. Gray there is more definition on degree of lacing allowed, which judges are going to be particular about, so to me that means we should either breed the Birchens to the Birchen standard and call them Birchens, or breed them to more lacing and call them Grays.

 

[WVDan44]

These are good points, and highlight that we need to decide what we feel an ideal bird should be.

In regards to Birchen vs. Gray (the main thing that I personally think should be changed), Gray allows for more variability, yes, but most noticeably it allows for more lacing on the breast of the birds, which I (can only speak for myself) wish to preserve and improve on in future generations. I envision a black bird with striking heavy white head and neck lacing, and thinner lacing running ventrally over the breast and back of neck. This, to me, would be a very striking hen and that's what I'm looking forward to in the future. When reading the two standards, Birchen and Gray, Birchen seems to be very particular that the white should not extend too far down...it's a big sticking point with them, from what I've read from other breeds with Birchen and what makes a good Birchen. That was the main sticking point, too, on the comments from the judges at the show. Gray, in their minds, is basically birchen with more lacing on the breast.

On the Silver Penciled, if we are wanting to breed towards this variety looking like every other silver penciled bird, then we should probably remove the mealy references from the standard and make them a true silver penciled variety. I'm not against it, they are very pretty. I just think if we call them SP, then we have to be prepared to make them SP, which they aren't yet, and accept that we have subpar birds until breeding catches up with the standard. Nothing wrong with this, we just need to be clear what we want our ideal Iowa Blue to be.

On the Silver Duckwing, I prefer Silver Gray mostly because I find "Duckwing" to be an ugly sounding term for a pretty bird, no other reason. They're equivalent.

Kari, Connie - this inevitably means we will need to heavily outcross to produce the "beautiful show bird" Kari described. It is not currently within the genes. SP will need to go to something like SP rocks (which I have been unable to find a source for) and Birchens will have to be re-named or outcrossed and changed all together to conform to the pattern and coloration common among other breeds in the APA.

Connie, duckwing is a recognized term albeit an ugly one but very common amongst many breeders, so I wonder should it be left alone. By the way, I'm still drooling over the salmon breasted silver/gray pullet that Kari has. I'd be happy with a whole pen of those!

This push-pull conversation is good, but sooner or later the decision must be made and the other conversations need to be halted for the good of the breed. Decide, move forward, don't look back unless looking back is what we decide to do. That's the key, look ahead in the breeding program or look back and try to restore. That doesn't in itself seem to be a difficult decision - but here we are still discussing it (I'm not complaining please understand).

I too find myself flip-flopping on the various issues from week to week as I'm sure many others do, so I do understand how difficult it is to make a decision. The worst that can happen is a split in the philosophy so that some go one way and some the other. Both camps present very compelling cases for their vision of where the breed should go and there's bound to be a lot more conversation and debate before this is settled.

I would however end with this. What characteristics make our breed unique? Be they SP or Birchen, there are many breeds with striking birds in these patterns and colors. What makes the IB uniquely qualified to be a distinct breed? Perhaps that's where we need to concentrate first.

Exciting discussion and exciting prospects for the breed's future!

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Quote:
Good Points Kari. I would add (if to play advocate for the opposite), that the pics of Ransome Bolson's flock would be the clearest example of what the breed was suppose to be as he got his stock directly from the originator of the breed. Also, the accounts of both John Logston and Michael Moore (both of which saw the first flock of Iowa Blue's in their original created form on the farm they were created on, with Michael raising them until he was in his sixties) should be taken as examples of the "pure" form before hatcheries took them on.

The pic of my avatar is of Ransome's flock and the hens are not finely penciled. Michael's account also made clear that they were not finely penciled. I think the coloration should NOT be clean and precise.

Their coloration is so very different from fine Silver Penciling and for that matter if you want the fine penciling, there are plenty of breeds to raise that possess that coloration. Rocks, Wyandottes, Dark Brahmas, which it could be pointed out that the Silver Penciled variety in each of those breeds is nearing extinction (according to the ALBC). They may be pretty in a showpen, but aren't cutting it in the real world......

As far as them needing to be gorgeous to look at..........the Turken, Showgirl, Modern Game? They look aweful, but have plenty of followers.........I think the Silver Penciled/Mealy Grey pattern that we have is ALREADY gorgeous and doesn't need "refining" in the larger sense. Having better uniformity in breast lacing on the cockerels would be a nice lighter refinement that I think the breed could benefit from, but not a complete make over.

As far as the Iowa Blue being only a hatchery bird..........we have only one confirmed hatchery that has ever raised them in the past and that's Fenton's Hatchery. There's accounts saying that hatcheries had them and so we go off of those account, but I can't confirm any of those existed in all my research. Glenn, did add blood in, you are right, but his selections afterward were to select to the original type (Ideal's selections were to the pretty). Glenn also shared that he is a preservation center and not a hatchery. He hasn't made a profit for even one year since he's operated the perservation center. His wife and he live off of his teacher's wage, and every year they have to use that wage to keep the preservation center afloat. As he's stated before, if he was in it to make the money to pay the feed, he wouldn't be able to maintain the breeds as they were originally created and it would defeat the purpose of the preservation center, which is to preserve them in the purest form possible. The ALBC has also verified that his flock is the closest to the original type in color, shape, and function and that's got to have some clout........if nothing other than to verify that his bloodline is the closest to the real deal.......

Now, Kari is right, his flock is VERY small. Just three hens and three cockbirds. Good news is that he's hatched out over 150 chicks and is planning on having over 250 chicks for him and I to sort through come this fall when he sets up next year's Iowa Blue pen.

A gentleman from New York named Tom Baker said it best I think. He said something to the effect of this....the reason I don't want to get involved with the breed club is because they are trying to improve the Iowa Blue and the Iowa Blue doesn't need improvement. If it is bred to its originial form and function it will satisfy any breeder in beauty and production. Only the strains of Iowa Blue's that haven't been bred to resemble the original type are the ones in need of improvement. And I would have to say that I agree with him on that whole heartedly!! Glenn's 10-11 pound roosters and 8-9 pound hens definatley aren't "hatchery quality" like the little 5 lb roosters and 4 pounds hens from Ideal. And the egg size and quality from his hens far surpasses anything I've seen from Ideal. I don't think his flock can be lumped into hatchery stock.........and should be taken more seriously than we as a club have been taking it. Yes, he's made selections on that flock, but he's the only one still breeding the Iowa Blue that has seen the original purebreds in person and held them in his hands, that has to account for something............it has to bring a great deal of value and sway I would think.

As far as the APA goes, maybe we shouldn't be pursuing that at all..........the ALBC can list of many breeds where the APA and those interested in showbirds have caused the breed they represent to go extinct in its origianl form. What have they offered the breed when the showbirds end up causing the very thing they came from to go extinct. And it could be argued that no showbird will ever be as productive as their original anscestors. That's the double edged sword that showing causes to breeds.........I was talking to Phil Shank and he said that the best female Wyandottes in the showpens rare lay more than 30-50 eggs a year. What good is a bird like that? She may be pretty, but she's completely negated her purpose to live, which is to be productive!!!!! If that's what APA Standarizing will do to this breed, isn't it better to walk away now and promote out breed for the functionality that is has to offer?
On a side note, there are plenty of showquality RIR's around, particularly the single combed birds, but the original RIR in nearly extinct and the ALBC is tying there darndest to find and locate those flocks before the breed goes extinct. And, the ALBC doesn't recognize the show quality RIR as "actual" RIR because they are so different from the way the birds were suppose to look. Fads and fasions got involved and people wanted birds that they thought were pretty and well, they've made a bit of a mess out of it.....is that were we want to be in 20 years?

Finding the right direction to travel is so difficult when there isn't a Standard already in place!!!!! hahahaha Oh to have chosen a rare breed that had a Standard!