Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[karimw]

I have only seen true lacing on my Birchen males, the smokeys and silvers have some sort of spangle. I don't have any experience with the charcoals, though I like the Autosomal barring too. I do have 4 chicks by Curt's rooster (2 charcoal, 2 birchen, 3 smokey) so I'm looking forward to watching what happens with them.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I too prefer the look of the # 2 cockbird. I also like the breast pattern on the young cockerel on the left in the picture below. It's more circular and less "lace" shaped. The pattern of the cockerel below is called "starry" in layman's terms....


Our historical accounts are mixed, some say laced breasts on the males, some say spangled. Interestingly enough, we know that the original birds were a mix of Silvers and Charcoals. The Silver males have spangling, the Charcoal males have lacing. Seems all accounts were right! hahaha.

 

[karimw]

I too prefer the look of the # 2 cockbird. I also like the breast pattern on the young cockerel on the left in the picture below. It's more circular and less "lace" shaped. The pattern of the cockerel below is called "starry" in layman's terms....


Our historical accounts are mixed, some say laced breasts on the males, some say spangled. Interestingly enough, we know that the original birds were a mix of Silvers and Charcoals. The Silver males have spangling, the Charcoal males have lacing. Seems all accounts were right! hahaha.

My only problem with that theory is I don't think Birchen was part of the original gene pool because there were no black chicks reported.

 

[Candy442]

I have only seen true lacing on my Birchen males, the smokeys and silvers have some sort of spangle. I don't have any experience with the charcoals, though I like the Autosomal barring too. I do have 4 chicks by Curt's rooster (2 charcoal, 2 birchen, 3 smokey) so I'm looking forward to watching what happens with them.

My only problem with that theory is I don't think Birchen was part of the original gene pool because there were no black chicks reported.

I have been studying the photos between here and the web site. I am confused what the main difference is between the Charcoal and Birchen Rooster coloring (even the Smoke-the rooster in the smoke photo on the IaB webpage could look silver to me). It would help us a lot if we knew what is slam dunk determination if a rooster is Charcoal, Smoke, SP, or Birchen

.

I get lost with the talk of "autosomal" references too...sorry!

If there is a quick "cheat sheet" of colors, barring, or other typical characteristics of the four types we discuss, that would be helpful.

I only have my four right now, which I know are two silver and two birchen, but when these guys start having babies I will really be stuck trying to figure out what they fall under

.

or...another question. With these four from Kari's stock will I get anything other than SP or Birchen babies? With SP cockerel over Birchen pullet, what are the percentages of Birchen offspring since I was under the impression that Birchen also has the SP gene? With SP Gandalf over SP Sweetie, will all be SP babies or will some others come out?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I've thought much on that as well. From what I can gather, the main difference between the silver and charcoal is the elocus base. So, if the breed was homozygous for Db as well as being homozygous for the modifiers unique to the breed, logically it is possible that the breed would have breed consistantly within both color morphs. Thoughts?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Candy,

It is difficult to answer some of your questions. And I'll explain:

Silver and Smokey males will look identical at maturity. The only way you can differenticate them is when theya re born. The Smokey's are yellow and have the destinctive "eye stripe". The Silvers will be brown mottled, with most being heavily brown colored in their mottling.

The Birchen and Charcoal males look similar but one trait will give them away. The Birchen will have a black crow-wing, and the Charcoal will have a light stippling in the same area of the wing. If you check out the Charcoal male on the website you will see this clearly. Otherwise, the males are indeed, very similar.

We as breeders have to be diligant in marking our chicks as babies so we know what we are selling to others and what is being used in our breeding pens!

If you look up autosomal red online, you'll find a trove of information that should help you out. Basically, autosomal red caused red to show up on the male's wings and even his breast and tail if it's strong enough.

 

[karimw]

I have been studying the photos between here and the web site. I am confused what the main difference is between the Charcoal and Birchen Rooster coloring (even the Smoke-the rooster in the smoke photo on the IaB webpage could look silver to me). It would help us a lot if we knew what is slam dunk determination if a rooster is Charcoal, Smoke, SP, or Birchen

.

I get lost with the talk of "autosomal" references too...sorry!

If there is a quick "cheat sheet" of colors, barring, or other typical characteristics of the four types we discuss, that would be helpful.

I only have my four right now, which I know are two silver and two birchen, but when these guys start having babies I will really be stuck trying to figure out what they fall under

.

or...another question. With these four from Kari's stock will I get anything other than SP or Birchen babies? With SP cockerel over Birchen pullet, what are the percentages of Birchen offspring since I was under the impression that Birchen also has the SP gene? With SP Gandalf over SP Sweetie, will all be SP babies or will some others come out?

Silver is recessive so if you cross two Silvers that is all you should get. So far my Silver pen is producing only Silvers. Smokey is dominant to Silver but recessive to Birchen, so the Smokey birds could be hiding a silver gene. The Birchen is dominant to everything, so it could be hiding either Smokey or Silver. I would say your Birchens have a possibility of carrying the Smokey gene. If you cross them with a Silver, the Smokey gene will reveal itself if it's there.

The factors that make them laced, spangled or barred are another story entirely. I think Curt's rooster is unique with that barring pattern on his breast. That shows a link back to the Campine breed in his background with the autosomal barring. This pattern can occur on both male and female in equal dosage and is different than the sex linked gene occurs in breeds like the Barred Rock or Cuckoo Marans where the males have 1 or 2 but the female only can have one dose.

So how do you tell them apart? The Birchens are easy, their wings are all black. The Silvers and Smokeys are tougher as both have white on their wings. The only way I know to be sure is to mark them as chicks. Yellow chicks are Smokey, Brown are Silver. This year I am playing it smart. I toe punched them so I know what color they were born.

Of course I'll add a disclaimer that this is what I have seen in my hatches, and I have been known to call it wrong before. You have to do a lot of hatching to find the patterns.

I hope that helps Candy There is a lot of good genetic information on this site if you dig around.

 

[Candy442]

If you look up autosomal red online, you'll find a trove of information that should help you out. Basically, autosomal red caused red to show up on the male's wings and even his breast and tail if it's strong enough.

Thanks Curt,

So autosomal red could show up as a little patch of medium brown on the wings?

 

[karimw]

I've thought much on that as well. From what I can gather, the main difference between the silver and charcoal is the elocus base. So, if the breed was homozygous for Db as well as being homozygous for the modifiers unique to the breed, logically it is possible that the breed would have breed consistantly within both color morphs. Thoughts?

Not sure yet, Curt! I finally have a definite Db chick to play with. Now it may be I have the gene and haven't been able to recognize it. I rather hope my little chocolate chick is a rooster.

(PS I had 2, but lost the lighter colored one. I wasn't surprised as it had pipped the wrong end and took almost 2 days to hatch.)

 

[Candy442]

I hope that helps Candy There is a lot of good genetic information on this site if you dig around.

It does help quite a bit, I can look up genetic information too just been years since I had any genetic teaching Thanks and I am counting my chickens before they hatch unfortunately because I have no broody hens so far and no incubator . You all will probably hear me all the way to Iowa if someone sits and tries to take skin off my hand getting eggs !! but it will be from excitement because ALL of the eggs that a hen will sit on will be Gandalf's I am 90 percent sure of that!

Thanks Curt,

So autosomal red could show up as a little patch of medium brown on the wings?

Gandalf has about a 1 x 1/2 inch of brown color bar on the middle of his wings...The only other color besides black and white I could find on his entire body.