Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

Here is an article that I wrote for the June edition of the IBCC Bulletin. I've been sharing this information with various breeders for the past couple of years and it's been unfortunate that this hasn't grabbed ahold with a firmer grasp. I've shared this information with Glenn and via Glenn to Phil Sponenberg (Glenn saved the breed in the early 1990's before outside blood was added in and Phil perfomed genetic testing on it to determine the genes involved). What was missing was the information regarding the melanizers. For far too long a common thought has been that the original Iowa Blue was over melanized (as per Ideal type birds, and a thought I've been firmly against) however it appears that they were originally undermanized birchens. Glenn and Phil both shared that it was in their opinion the breeders should place their focus on what is written below and Sandhill Preservation Center has spent the past three years working in locking this in and I've been active with Glenn in selecting his stock and lining up breeding from a genetic standpoint. Modifiers are still 'loose' but Glenn is getting closer.

At this point in time I believe that the original Iowa Blues were in fact what is described below and that the mottled and striped chicks were off types (albeit they grow up looking the same just as they did in the past) based on the fact of the overwhelming information of first hand accounts stating that the chestnut colored chicks were the "right chicks" and the ones selected for. Both the eb and e+ would be recessive to the BR so they would crop up without warning. I caution; black birchen colored birds are incorrect, undermelanized birchens are. When I first got started with the Iowa Blues Glenn said to me, "The key is the chestnut chicks, hatch them in mass and select for color at adulthood and you'll get the original Iowa Blue color back". One of the biggest struggles has been that we didn't have alot of chestnut chicks at first when we started our conservation work and all were at that time over melanized. Add to this the fact that Ideal had the birchen base right but the color 100% wrong, and you can quickly see how things spiraled out of control and caused our club years of confusion. However, now we're getting undermalnized birchens showing up and it is obvious that Glenn was pointing us in the right direction this entire time.

We are once again starting to see expressions of this happening in various flocks across the nation and my sincere hope is that the breeders will start to focus on these and give proper attention to this coloration. If we do, once again the Iowa Blue will "look blue but not have the blue gene" as our historical accounts so ardently declare. Hopefully by posting this here, it will generate the needed interest. More to come on this in the future.


Undermelanized Birchen Based Birds
Curt Burroughs






For all you Iowa Blue genetic junkies out there, here is something I stumbled upon that I found intriguing. Before I start, I want to remind everyone that both the Birchen and Charcoal colored birds are built on the ER (Birchen gene).
The male on the left is a Birchen based Old English Game male (BR on the e-locus) with weak melanizers. This male does not possess the blue gene (Bl) even though he looks a slatey-blue color. Notice when the melanizers are reduced on this male, that his breast is lightened and has a blue effect on the ground color, also he has a fading in the secondaries which gives him the appearance of having a duckwing, but not quite. His tail lightens to a blueish ground color and he loses all black coloration in the hackle, shoulder, back, and saddles. Now, compare this to Herman on the right, there is a lightened ground color on his breast, body, as well as a slight lightened coloration on parts of his tail. His secondaries are lightened and he is nearly pure white on the hackle, shoulder, back, and saddle. Could it be possible that the Birchen based Iowa Blues (Birchen and Charcoal) were actually under-melanized as opposed to extra melanized?
Would it also be possible that some of the Iowa Blues developed with coloration like closer to the male on the left? In which case they would definitely look blue like W.C. Fenton claimed when he named the breed? They wouldn’t have had the blue gene, but would have looked blue due to the lack of melanizers?

The female on the left is the mate to the male in the left photo above. She too is an under-melanized Birchen (BR) based individual. The female on the right is one of the chicks Kent Whealy hatched out of Ransome Bolson’s eggs. The hen on the left sure looks like an eb based bird with Pg, but she is BR based. *** As a side note of interest, the male on the left and the female on the left were both hatched out a solid chestnut color. *** I found this all to be very interesting and thought I’d add it here as a note of genetic interest and to spur discussion.

 

[iamfivewire]

we LOVE getting the chestnut-coloured chicks when we hatch . . . . . & 2016 hatching season isnt too far off !

 

[Candy442]

I found this all to be very interesting and thought I’d add it here as a note of genetic interest and to spur discussion.

This is such great background information and we have studied all of the comments that breeders looking to return to the original genetics of the Iowa Blue.

Can you help us understand how we are getting chestnut starting with an Silver male with AR over a clean smokey and two birchen hens? that one hen produced JB who appears to be a charcoal ? Now JB is covering the same hens plus some patterned birchens as well as the smokey hens in the same coop. Brett grabbed two eggs out of the Iowa coop to allow one of our smokey hens to brood and we get that beautiful chestnut and her darker sister. What would be your best guess of which hen may have given us the chestnut or the possibilities? JB, charcoal over birchen, smokey, or another not perfect chestnut colored charcoal? We are pretty sure she didn't come out of our single silver girl because we know her eggs are much smaller than our other hens.

 

[Wappoke]

This is such great background information and we have studied all of the comments that breeders looking to return to the original genetics of the Iowa Blue.

Can you help us understand how we are getting chestnut starting with an Silver male with AR over a clean smokey and two birchen hens? that one hen produced JB who appears to be a charcoal ? Now JB is covering the same hens plus some patterned birchens as well as the smokey hens in the same coop. Brett grabbed two eggs out of the Iowa coop to allow one of our smokey hens to brood and we get that beautiful chestnut and her darker sister. What would be your best guess of which hen may have given us the chestnut or the possibilities? JB, charcoal over birchen, smokey, or another not perfect chestnut colored charcoal? We are pretty sure she didn't come out of our single silver girl because we know her eggs are much smaller than our other hens.

Could you post pictures of the birds you are talking about. The male in the top photo that Curt posted appears to be a fawn siver birchen. I do not think he is purebred at the E locus- he carries at least one birchen allele. It is not unusual for birchens to have lacing on the breast. I believe It is the dunn gene that is causing the diluted color in his tail.


Are you posting about chestnut in the chick down? Like the chicks on the left.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/1/1e/900x900px-LL-1ed20a80_LL-2.jpeg

Chicks that are purebred brown at the E locus can also have a chestnut color in the down.

 

[Candy442]

Could you post pictures of the birds you are talking about. The male in the top photo that Curt posted appears to be a fawn siver birchen. I do not think he is purebred at the E locus- he carries at least one birchen allele. It is not unusual for birchens to have lacing on the breast. I believe It is the dunn gene that is causing the diluted color in his tail.


Are you posting about chestnut in the chick down? Like the chicks on the left.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/1/1e/900x900px-LL-1ed20a80_LL-2.jpeg

@Wappoke Yes, we hatched a chestnut colored chick that is a pullet. We love the color of her and she is showing that slate gray color now. I am not sure how we managed to get this color from the four Iowa's we started with. Curious as to what the possible combination is in our flock creating that beautiful chestnut color. We want more of those The pullet photo top is what the chestnut chick on the left in the next photo looks like now. Her darker sister on the right photo is below the chick picture. Then I will post a photo of our flock. We want to get more of these chestnut chicks. I am thinking to use the rooster over this pullet. But which hen did we get this girl from?

Now photo of the parent flock. JB is on the far right:

 

[trailrider330]

Here is an article that I wrote for the June edition of the IBCC Bulletin. I've been sharing this information with various breeders for the past couple of years and it's been unfortunate that this hasn't grabbed ahold with a firmer grasp. I've shared this information with Glenn and via Glenn to Phil Sponenberg (Glenn saved the breed in the early 1990's before outside blood was added in and Phil perfomed genetic testing on it to determine the genes involved). What was missing was the information regarding the melanizers. For far too long a common thought has been that the original Iowa Blue was over melanized (as per Ideal type birds, and a thought I've been firmly against) however it appears that they were originally undermanized birchens. Glenn and Phil both shared that it was in their opinion the breeders should place their focus on what is written below and Sandhill Preservation Center has spent the past three years working in locking this in and I've been active with Glenn in selecting his stock and lining up breeding from a genetic standpoint. Modifiers are still 'loose' but Glenn is getting closer.

At this point in time I believe that the original Iowa Blues were in fact what is described below and that the mottled and striped chicks were off types (albeit they grow up looking the same just as they did in the past) based on the fact of the overwhelming information of first hand accounts stating that the chestnut colored chicks were the "right chicks" and the ones selected for. Both the eb and e+ would be recessive to the BR so they would crop up without warning. I caution; black birchen colored birds are incorrect, undermelanized birchens are. When I first got started with the Iowa Blues Glenn said to me, "The key is the chestnut chicks, hatch them in mass and select for color at adulthood and you'll get the original Iowa Blue color back". One of the biggest struggles has been that we didn't have alot of chestnut chicks at first when we started our conservation work and all were at that time over melanized. Add to this the fact that Ideal had the birchen base right but the color 100% wrong, and you can quickly see how things spiraled out of control and caused our club years of confusion. However, now we're getting undermalnized birchens showing up and it is obvious that Glenn was pointing us in the right direction this entire time.

We are once again starting to see expressions of this happening in various flocks across the nation and my sincere hope is that the breeders will start to focus on these and give proper attention to this coloration. If we do, once again the Iowa Blue will "look blue but not have the blue gene" as our historical accounts so ardently declare. Hopefully by posting this here, it will generate the needed interest. More to come on this in the future.


Undermelanized Birchen Based Birds
Curt Burroughs






For all you Iowa Blue genetic junkies out there, here is something I stumbled upon that I found intriguing. Before I start, I want to remind everyone that both the Birchen and Charcoal colored birds are built on the ER (Birchen gene).
The male on the left is a Birchen based Old English Game male (BR on the e-locus) with weak melanizers. This male does not possess the blue gene (Bl) even though he looks a slatey-blue color. Notice when the melanizers are reduced on this male, that his breast is lightened and has a blue effect on the ground color, also he has a fading in the secondaries which gives him the appearance of having a duckwing, but not quite. His tail lightens to a blueish ground color and he loses all black coloration in the hackle, shoulder, back, and saddles. Now, compare this to Herman on the right, there is a lightened ground color on his breast, body, as well as a slight lightened coloration on parts of his tail. His secondaries are lightened and he is nearly pure white on the hackle, shoulder, back, and saddle. Could it be possible that the Birchen based Iowa Blues (Birchen and Charcoal) were actually under-melanized as opposed to extra melanized?
Would it also be possible that some of the Iowa Blues developed with coloration like closer to the male on the left? In which case they would definitely look blue like W.C. Fenton claimed when he named the breed? They wouldn’t have had the blue gene, but would have looked blue due to the lack of melanizers?

The female on the left is the mate to the male in the left photo above. She too is an under-melanized Birchen (BR) based individual. The female on the right is one of the chicks Kent Whealy hatched out of Ransome Bolson’s eggs. The hen on the left sure looks like an eb based bird with Pg, but she is BR based. *** As a side note of interest, the male on the left and the female on the left were both hatched out a solid chestnut color. *** I found this all to be very interesting and thought I’d add it here as a note of genetic interest and to spur discussion.

Curt,

Thank you for your continued research and efforts to revitalize this breed back to its original form and function.

As someone who hopes to get my first flock of Iowa Blues this spring, this information leaves me with a lot of questions regarding how I should proceed. My original plan was to focus on Silvers, but if chestnut chicks are the ultimate goal (Er), breeding Silvers (eb) is never going to get me there.

So, some of my initial questions related to this topic are (Please keep in mind I have a rudimentary understanding of the both the breed and the genetics involved.):

If an Er based, chestnut colored chick is what we are to be aiming for, then we are talking about Charcoal Iowa Blues, as opposed to the Silver Iowa Blues, as was originally thought, correct? If this is the case, how does this impact the breed’s likelihood of officially being accepted into the APA? Does it change anything? Or, are we “dead in the water” with regards to SOP and APA acceptance?

If we know a Birchen is Er/Er, Er/e+, or Er/eb; a Smokey is e+/e+ or e+/eb; and a Silver is eb/eb. How does this new information impact our breeding pens? Starting with chestnut chicks (Charcoals) is obviously ideal, but it sounds like even breeding Charcoal X Charcoal doesn’t often result in a Charcoal. If we are short on chestnut chicks, do we have any idea what combination of genes we are dealing with? If so, do we know what combination of breeding stock is most likely to produce them? Or, is it more “luck of the draw” at this time until we know more? [For example, is it best to start with a mixed flock included the 4 varieties of Iowa Blues, do numerous test breedings (as long as we know at least one of those birds is Er based) , and see if any pairs result in chestnut chicks?]

Just curious what your thoughts are, as well as other who have IBs, regarding where we should head from here.

Thank you again for all the time you have spent on this endeavor.

 

[karimw]

Her folks wouldn't let her keep them in their basement, and my basement here really needs a serious cleaning out before setting up chicks there. Then it would involve keeping the dog from going down there all the time to watch them.
.

My cats love the entertainment

 

[Candy442]

Curt,

Thank you for your continued research and efforts to revitalize this breed back to its original form and function.

As someone who hopes to get my first flock of Iowa Blues this spring, this information leaves me with a lot of questions regarding how I should proceed. My original plan was to focus on Silvers, but if chestnut chicks are the ultimate goal (Er), breeding Silvers (eb) is never going to get me there.

So, some of my initial questions related to this topic are (Please keep in mind I have a rudimentary understanding of the both the breed and the genetics involved.):

If an Er based, chestnut colored chick is what we are to be aiming for, then we are talking about Charcoal Iowa Blues, as opposed to the Silver Iowa Blues, as was originally thought, correct? If this is the case, how does this impact the breed’s likelihood of officially being accepted into the APA? Does it change anything? Or, are we “dead in the water” with regards to SOP and APA acceptance?

If we know a Birchen is Er/Er, Er/e+, or Er/eb; a Smokey is e+/e+ or e+/eb; and a Silver is eb/eb. How does this new information impact our breeding pens? Starting with chestnut chicks (Charcoals) is obviously ideal, but it sounds like even breeding Charcoal X Charcoal doesn’t often result in a Charcoal. If we are short on chestnut chicks, do we have any idea what combination of genes we are dealing with? If so, do we know what combination of breeding stock is most likely to produce them? Or, is it more “luck of the draw” at this time until we know more? [For example, is it best to start with a mixed flock included the 4 varieties of Iowa Blues, do numerous test breedings (as long as we know at least one of those birds is Er based) , and see if any pairs result in chestnut chicks?]

Just curious what your thoughts are, as well as other who have IBs, regarding where we should head from here.

Thank you again for all the time you have spent on this endeavor.

@trailrider330 Well, lets just say the Chestnut is the holy grail of what historians feel will get us as close to the original color of the breed.

My feelings on your question about what color is preferred. There will be those who will wish to work on the process to find the "holy grail"

, like Fivewire farm wishes to and there will be others that feel the silver is going to be as good as it gets and to accept that. It really depends on what you wish to work with. Current club standard is written around the silver color. The reason for this is that silver being recessive will without a doubt be the easiest to arrive at most frequently. If people wishing to work toward APA breed acceptance, the standard needs to be written to work with the color that will be most presentable...at least at this point in time which is the silver. APA breed acceptance needs to have a standard set before the members of the Iowa club start showing and working toward that acceptance. I do not know how many Iowa club members are APA members that continuously show the Iowa or where we are at with that endeavor. I just got elected the Vice President of the club

and have a lot of learning to do as well as become more informed what direction the club feels it should take. There are members that show Silver Iowas already and have won ribbons for those exhibits. I am just guessing that the focus on the silver is only for APA purposes, but I could be wrong. The problem with rushing to get a standard is that when the color code is discovered, we will have to start on developing a standard for the original, which sounds odd when the standard was proposed initially for a silver being the color. I am not privy to understanding APA politics either being only 3 years new to chicken keeping, but it would seem if we are nowhere near APA acceptance of the breed that we give the time to work toward the "blue" in the Iowa that seems to be lacking in the silver varieties to date.

Now, we are really new at breeding Iowas and neither Brett or I have the learning to understand the complex genetics. But, we were graced with a beautiful chestnut pullet chick last September as you well know She is feathering beautifully and the consensus of those breeders who are working to get the Iowa back to the "blue" hue feel she is exactly what we need to work with. Curt states this in his discussion above about those interested in getting back to the historical accounts of the Iowa "Blue" need to focus on chestnut and breed the best of those together. Chestnut to chestnut will get the breed where it should be. What we had to work with and now are seeing more and more charcoal type chicks is very exciting to me! We have so little silver in our flock of four that only one chick, a very small pullet, was hatched out and she has the willow green legs. All the other birds we have have black, slate gray, or very beautiful silver blue as evident on our smokey pullets that hatch. I would love to see the breed return to it's glory. I would love to show it as such. I would hope others would also wish this for a breed that avoided total extinction and was revived by breeders who fought to preserve it.

Tricia, Fivewire farm currently is so far away from even the silver standard, we feel at this point lets go for the charcoal and chestnut color chicks. Brett hatched those 8 Jamaica line birds last September as well. We got four cockerels and four pullets out of that hatch. three of each sex are silver and one of each sex are birchen

. All of the silvers are very small and have willow green legs. The slate or dark leg is dominant, so one generation of breeding those to my JB rooster should get rid of the willow. JB is not a huge boy, but much bigger than the Jamaica birds. I will be only using the silver pullets from that hatch to bring new blood into the flock. Of my older flock aged from 1-3 years old, I have seven hens and one rooster. So we have one very tiny silver pullet. All of our birds are 5 to 7 lbs soaking wet. But we do have the dark eyes, the red comb, and the slate legs. That is about it for now.

What do you think?
Chestnut chick feathering to slate gray pattern (gives the "blue" hue from a distance) and very silver white head on left or the silver pullet on the right with black in the background color and hopefully will show more white in her head (they both born a week apart in September 2015). Granted this silver may not be best represented for silver. Also, the brown on the charcoal pullet is more pronounced in the photo than in person but it is there on her too.

 

[Hurley]

We have muddy waters to wade through indeed with the quantity of genes floating in the landrace, so to speak. ER can hide so much behind it and is so variable in combination with modifiers that it can be difficult to ferret out what is actually behind our birds. Keep in mind, genetically, that the black birchen variant really isn't that far off from Curt's discussion and the charcoals. ER is as ER does, it doesn't vary bird to bird - it's the other part of the soup that makes the difference. Any time you cover a bird in melanizers, you hind a good portion of what lies beneath. Some of those lovely representations of the breed can be hiding beneath all that black, where we can't see them. When you start combining lineages, those "surprises" give you a window into what lies beneath. eb<e+<ER for the E-locus, yes, but when you add in pg, db, and undoutably other melanizers and restrictors...sometimes in the same bird...different combos will have different results. Oh the fun for us, we don't know definitively all of the combos and their phenotypes, but we've come a long way in a few short years to figuring some of that out. Chick down is kind enough to help us try to ferret out the E-locus to at least help us being to piece the puzzle together. I wish I had the time and space to do the test raising and crossing I would love to do, but I don't. Luckily we have a wonderful resource in this great IB community and the internet, not to mention digital photographs!

Even breeding "Silver to Silver", the chicks can be so variable, and that is coming from various mixtures of the modifiers present in our breed, and there are a bunch! It's not just ER vs. E+ vs eb, either. I've got Smokey in the background here and in those birds I see chick results that would suggest E+/eb shows incomplete dominance. I was getting a quarter silver looking chicks, 1/2 silverish looking chicks with smoky-ish faces, and 1/4 smoky chicks. Those suspected heterozygous chicks in general grow out with more white.

I have never had a "charcoal" adult bird that was known as such, yet I get sporadic solid chestnut appearing chicks, smokys, black (birchen) type chicks, and black chicks with red caps, not to mention all the variation in mottling vs. not, striping vs. not, yellow/smokyish faces vs. not, rusty red vs. darker/colder brown chicks, chicks that appears almost frosted and light....this from a breedings of slivers with a couple birchen hens. Last year I started making detailed records on the chicks and took photos of each, for comparison, but with the AI issues and life being life, I sold off the hatches and didn't get to follow up. Do the redder chicks end up with AR or gold leakage or both? What gene are the stripes indicating vs. mottling plus stripes - probably a combination of 2 genes or more vs. mottling alone? Obviously the solid chicks are likely ER based, which is going to cover those indications that we may be able to match up in the silvers. I feel the silvers are the most valuable for test crossing to define the underlying genes, if I were getting academic about the crosses. I also agree that in general if you keep breeding charcoal to charcoal, holding back the best charcoals that you will favor the restrictors and hopefully reduce the melanizers over time. You also take the risk of unintentionally breeding out some key part of the mix if it only expresses in certain circumstances. So much easier figure out when there is only one gene unknown - we've gotten a better handle on the e locus. The rest are going to be more challenging!



It would probably be helpful if a thread were generated to post results of pairings, if everyone made an effort to report the same way. I love the english language, but I know very well that people have different interpretations of words and the stories get very convoluted. Even the term "chestnut chicks"...huge variation in what I've seen shown/decribed that is all lumped under that term. Solid chocolate brown chicks, brown tips/darker brown or black underlying, but solid chick/agouti like, softer brown but solid chicks, brown silver looking chicks without mottling or stripes, but showing more variation in the brown, especially ventrally.

That's where even reporting is hard - accurate and meaningful data relies on all participating parties speaking the same language AND having the same visual/identifying skills and interpretations of the language.

When I was logging chicks I made myself a list of factors and logged each chick at banding and photographed them, front and back (facial/belly markings and dorsal markings). It was amazing when I did that how those traits started to become more definite definable...you could start seeing on/off traits vs. on/incomplete/off traits. I seriously wish I had the end information to take back and compare, but it was good practice for trying again.

I took a hit this fall when the 4 roosters I did hold back began to express traits I didn't want, loved what I kept them for, didn't love the other traits as they matured. And so it goes. I am still on the quest for a really good rooster. I love my hens, but will be bringing in more blood this spring to move forward.

Oy, I've been rambling. You can shush me any time, didn't get much sleep. I hope some of the above was coherent. Just thinking out loud...through my fingertips.

I'll go now.

 

[Hurley]

Oh, yeah, and the purpose of the rambling originally was to post "Yes, Curt, great post, I agree." LOL What ensued after that was...something...else.