Is anybody else trying to breed the perfect dual purpose breed.

[gallorojo]

Why? Because you are a breeder and you make money off putting down one product and promoting another.

You know, I almost started to think like you you a few years back.

That the breeders all knocked the hatcheries just to drum up business for themselves.

I began going to shows and REALLY looking at the birds. The breeder birds are not just cosmetically better, they are the TRUE, REAL DEAL, what the breed was intended to be. A Wyandotte or an Orpington from a breeder are literally twice the size of many hatcheries bird of the same breed. If all you want are eggs, the many larger hatcheries breeds are great. If you want real "dual-purpose", or real birds of any breed with the correct traits that make the breed great, you need to get them from a real breeder. Hatcheries serve a great purpose, but producing standard bred birds they do not do all that well. I'm really sorry that you had a bad experience with ONE breeder. There are many good ones out there. There are APA shows in your area, there are chickenstocks, there are all these message boards and forums. You CAN find breeders , that are producing good honest fowl. You may have to be patient, you may have to drive long distances, or ship birds. That's just how it is. I just drove 3 1/2 hours today to trade chickens with a friend. I've waited nearly a year for birds, and driven 2-3 hours to meet people at shows to pick up birds. If you really want good birds, they are there. The breeder versions of the birds are so very, very ,worth it. They all cost the same to keep. Why not keep the best you can get?​

 

[Lordofchickens 86]

it kinda does seem like people on the forum look down mutt chickens and hatchery stock. and i think breeders do do that but breeder normally have better show quality bird. if you are worried about function i like hatchery stock. i started this thread. just to ask a simple question. what i should of asked is what are you breeding for function.meaning mutt dual purpose breeds

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
You know, I almost started to think like you you a few years back.

That the breeders all knocked the hatcheries just to drum up business for themselves.

I began going to shows and REALLY looking at the birds. The breeder birds are not just cosmetically better, they are the TRUE, REAL DEAL, what the breed was intended to be. A Wyandotte or an Orpington from a breeder are literally twice the size of many hatcheries bird of the same breed. If all you want are eggs, the many larger hatcheries breeds are great. If you want real "dual-purpose", or real birds of any breed with the correct traits that make the breed great, you need to get them from a real breeder. Hatcheries serve a great purpose, but producing standard bred birds they do not do all that well. I'm really sorry that you had a bad experience with ONE breeder. There are many good ones out there. There are APA shows in your area, there are chickenstocks, there are all these message boards and forums. You CAN find breeders , that are producing good honest fowl. You may have to be patient, you may have to drive long distances, or ship birds. That's just how it is. I just drove 3 1/2 hours today to trade chickens with a friend. I've waited nearly a year for birds, and driven 2-3 hours to meet people at shows to pick up birds. If you really want good birds, they are there. The breeder versions of the birds are so very, very ,worth it. They all cost the same to keep. Why not keep the best you can get?

Some people just want to have layer birds. . . nothing else. Others want to show and breed quality birds and don't care for "hatchery" birds. . . Doesn't make any better than others. They each serve their purpose. . . Now can we not make this thread into one of the "hatchery vs. breeder" ones?
Mitch

 

[gallorojo]

It does seem that way!!!

Come to my house, I have mutts of every sort all over the place, and that's fine! I love em!!

I think the issue is that once you know what a standard bred chicken CAN BE, it's hard to look the same at the hatchery birds. If I wanted to sell free range eggs and actually make money, you better bet I'm going with hatchery stock!! Same for meat birds.

I'm trying to sustainably raise chickens myself from start to finish over the long haul, while preserving some worthy breed. If you want to do something else, that's cool. I've gotten hatchery birds I was happy with, and breeder birds I was unhappy with. I just see it differently. I don't blame the breeder, I just feel the breeds were not what worked well for me.

I lose money every time I sell a chicken. Many other breeders do as well. I sell them just to get them into the hands of future potential breeders. Most will be be dead in 6 months. I have to hope someone will keep them going.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
You saw one privater breeders stock and make a judgement about breeders and their stock on that one breeder?

Hatcheries do serve a purpose as you stated; a very important purpose. However, I promise you that you are not going to find a SINGLE hatchery in the US that can provided you with the quality of Orientals that I and a few others raise. I can't speak about all breeds nor would I attempt too, but I can speak about Asil, Shamo, and Malays.

There are some very top-notch Hatcheries out there. The stock that Urch/Turnlund Hatchery puts out for example is just excellent. But Duane Urch has been a show breeder for over 60 years. Not all hatcheries are equal.

Just saying.........

Maybe in your area there are plenty of breeders of the ornamental show birds, none of which I would actually want in the first place. The only breeder in this area of any dual purpose breed is the aforementioned breeder...so I have only that one from which to form an opinion. It was enough.

Advising people and telling people they can only get good quality birds from a breeder is like saying I can only get a good quality car from the Mazerati dealer....guess what? They don't make 'em, import 'em or sell 'em in this part of the country, folks, so hatchery chicks are all there is....and I've always been quite satisfied with the quality of my hatchery birds, so why fix it if it isn't broken? Why all the insults to hatchery birds when they function, live and reproduce just fine for any common person's needs?

Why? Because you are a breeder and you make money off putting down one product and promoting another.

I think it all depends on what you are looking for in a bird, Do you want a bird looks kind of like the breed you ordered or do you want that breed?
It like the Maserati you mentioned, do you want a real Maserati or a car that kind of looks like a Maserati?

Like saladin said, "Not all hatcheries are equal"

Chris

 

[Lordofchickens 86]

that really not what i started this about.it was really to see how many people were trying to breed new breeds of dual purpose chickens. both kinds of stock are good if they have good genetics.

 

[saladin]

I didn't mean to get the thread off its' original purpose. I also didn't insult any hatchery stock. I was simply following the thread when from left field there is this remark that I totally disagreed with; so I responded.


Back on the thread target and in disagreement with my good friend gallo:

If I were raising dual purpose breeds:
(Hey, maybe I am. We eat/sell eggs and we eat our culls. Didn't know my Games were now Ornamental Show fowl? When did that take place? Must have happened while I was on the way to the Bank with all that money I've made. NOT! lol.)

I'd obtain my breed of choice (most likely one of the older breeds since I'm old and can relate to near non-existence) from the best breeder in the country: be that a hatchery or an individual.
I'd ship those birds into the South and start raising them like gangbusters. (I did think if rather funny that hatcheries ship birds all the time, but then bee limited to breeders in their area?)

I saw gjensens Rocks that he got from kathyinmo. OH MY! They were beautiful birds and respresented the breed well. gjensens New Hamps were just HUGE at 12 weeks when I saw them. Orientals mature very slowly so my birds at 12 weeks look like dwarfs compared to gjensens. Now at 2 years old it's going to be a different story, but for now.... wow!

I'm one of those people that sees no need to reinvent the wheel. I do like to test breed for colors and the like, but see no need to try and create a new dual purpose breed when there are so many good ones out there already. Further, we the really old ones near extinction I'd concentrate on one of them; I'm just like that.

Now, if you are doing this to make money: you'd never choose a dual-purpose breed to begin with. PERIOD. The commercial boys are all about money. They know how to make money and survive. You do that by concentrating on either eggs or meat: not both.

I'm not the one to ask about making money. I'd sure like to some times, but I've never discovered how to do it. Here's why:

Any breeder worth her/his salt has got to be about culling! We have to cull often upward of 90% of those birds hatched to achieve our goal of improvement. You just can't make any money when you are hatching and growing out 500 birds for a whole year or more and then culling 450 of those very birds. It's just not possible I don't think. The words breeder and culling go hand-in-hand.

Let me give an example. One year I hatched out around 250 Cubalayas. I raised them for 10-12 months (lots of feed). At the end of that time I could not see any improvement over the original parent stock I had bred from. So, I culled them all: every last one of them. Did it set my breeding program back a whole year? Not at all! It advanced it forward because I learned what 2 strains of Cubalayas never to breed together again (I had 6 strains at that time).

I spent over 10 years collecting those 6 strains of Cubalayas. Each was different in it's on way. I then began to mix them together to try and produce my own strain. How much money I have spent in bird cost, shipping and feed during that time I can not tell you. Why? because this was never about making money for me. I have an earned doctorate and don't need chickens for an income. They are for me a way to relax. It's not nor never has been about the bottom line. When it becomes that I'm threw with it all. Hatcheries are about money and I'm not a hatchery. Nothing wrong with money: I happen to like it and use it on chickens!

 

[Oregon Blues]

I can see the value in auto-sexing dual purpose. The cockerels can be separated out and fed differently. The hens will be calmer without the males, and they can be fed for life long good health and laying health. The males can be pushed with higher protein to get them grown and in the freezer as quickly as possible.

[[[[[......hatchery birds when they function, live and reproduce just fine for any common person's needs?....]]]]]

If you can't tell the difference, then you will be very happy with them. If you can tell the difference but want hatchery birds you will be very happy with them.

If you've always wanted a Maserati and you get a real bargain on a Volkswagon that has a Maserati name plate fastened to the side and you believe you've got a Mazzaratti, you will be happy. You'll also be happy if what you wanted was a Volkswagon and don't kid yourself that you've purchased a Maserati.

You can fool yourself into thinking you've got quality birds from the hatchery and you'll be happy. Or you can know that they are probably not purebred and aren't good quality and if that is what you want, you will be happy with them.

 

[gjensen]

Quote:
I never intended to say that you couldn't make use of the auto sexing trait, and I did repeat that some could make use of it. I merely intended to say that I decided that I did not need the trait. I feed them both the same until they feather out. I seperate them after they are feathered out, and I can see who is who. Let me be clear, I have been interested in the English auto sexing breeds. I hope some do work with them so we will still have them around. I am interested in the utility and the functional characteristics of chickens. We were discussing breeding the perfect dual purpouse breed. Breeding dual purpouse, particular American breeds, interests me. I guess the point I intended to make is that we all think the ultimate dual purpouse breed is different. Sometimes I talk too much I guess.
I would like to know how burtonjohn does with the rhodebars. Some on here know that I am interested in them. I considered making some before I found that some had been imported. Also tadkerson created some redbarred birds with Rhodes. I would like to know POl (point of lay), EPA (eggs per annum), TW/A (target weight and age), how they dress out, EC/S (egg color and size), whether or not they brood and are good mothers, do they forage well, how quick do they molt out, do they lay well in low light (winter), what they were fed and managed to achieve those results, etc. etc. These kind of things are what I am interested in and am trying to learn about. I don't know any old farmer poultry men. I don't want to buy in birds every year, and I am not a fan of commercial operations. I do not fault the farmers though. They are supplying what we want.

 

[Lordofchickens 86]

yeah i do the same thing with cockrels.american chicken that is what im using to create my breed. i love to create mutts just to see what happens when you mix this breed with that one.