Isbar thread

[Ihilani Coffee]

If you didn't want packing peanuts you could have ordered more of the breed you selected. Most breeders send packing peanuts depending on the number ordered and the distance they will be shipped to make it more likely you will receive healthy chicks on arrival. If paying for feed for a few packing peanuts for a couple of months is really that onerous, it seems odd that you would get into the expensive hobby of breeding rare birds. If you don't want them, cull them or give them away.

What I object to are the comments calling their integrity into question. GFF's Terms and Conditions make it quite clear that the chicks they send are not guaranteed to some standard of perfection or to win shows. They clearly state that the birds you get will display the fundamental aspects of the breed, that you can't expect cosmetically perfect birds, and only a tiny fraction of their birds conform to the breed standard in every respect. They say you will get the fundamentals that with time and experience you can form your own breeding program. They don't guarantee your breeding program will be a success. They say they cull for obvious defects like crooked toes but that with rare breeds, there will be problems with inbreeding and that's just part of the business of bringing back rare breeds. The very first sentence in their terms and conditions is that if you don't want to accept their terms, then don't place an order.

People who don't want to pay their prices, or who expect a perfect specimen for that price, or who can't afford to feed some packing peanuts, or who aren't willing to take the risks clearly spelled out in their terms and conditions shouldn't buy from them.

It seems very unfair to call someone's integrity into question when they clearly state what you can expect if you place an order with them. Questioning integrity is not "stating an opinion" and libelous words are not OK under "freedom of speech". Questioning someone's integrity instantly places a veil of suspicion over someone. It's the worst thing you can say about someone and I agree with the previous poster that internet anonymity doesn't make it OK.

I agree with most of what you have said, however...GFF has had integrity issues with other breeds (like Rhodebar) where they initially said one thing and then changed the story once called out for things like selling inferior crosses as purebreds. I use the word inferior, as initially it was said they used RIR with the Rhodebar then later corrected themselves to include production reds. Either way, the chicks of such a cross are NOT purebred RB; the cockerels would only be single-barred and carry wheaten, etc. Selling chicks as purebred that are at least two generations away from breeding true autosexing Rhodebar is fraud. Plain and simple. It has done massive harm to this breed in the USA. With this truth in one breed, how do we trust them on other breeds?

 

[KYTinpusher]

If you didn't want packing peanuts you could have ordered more of the breed you selected. Most breeders send packing peanuts depending on the number ordered and the distance they will be shipped to make it more likely you will receive healthy chicks on arrival. If paying for feed for a few packing peanuts for a couple of months is really that onerous, it seems odd that you would get into the expensive hobby of breeding rare birds. If you don't want them, cull them or give them away.

What I object to are the comments calling their integrity into question. GFF's Terms and Conditions make it quite clear that the chicks they send are not guaranteed to some standard of perfection or to win shows. They clearly state that the birds you get will display the fundamental aspects of the breed, that you can't expect cosmetically perfect birds, and only a tiny fraction of their birds conform to the breed standard in every respect. They say you will get the fundamentals that with time and experience you can form your own breeding program. They don't guarantee your breeding program will be a success. They say they cull for obvious defects like crooked toes but that with rare breeds, there will be problems with inbreeding and that's just part of the business of bringing back rare breeds. The very first sentence in their terms and conditions is that if you don't want to accept their terms, then don't place an order.

People who don't want to pay their prices, or who expect a perfect specimen for that price, or who can't afford to feed some packing peanuts, or who aren't willing to take the risks clearly spelled out in their terms and conditions shouldn't buy from them.

It seems very unfair to call someone's integrity into question when they clearly state what you can expect if you place an order with them. Questioning integrity is not "stating an opinion" and libelous words are not OK under "freedom of speech". Questioning someone's integrity instantly places a veil of suspicion over someone. It's the worst thing you can say about someone and I agree with the previous poster that internet anonymity doesn't make it OK.

WOW! You really told me. Too bad your FACTS are sorely lacking.

1. I did not order my chicks off their website, so any disclaimer there does not apply. I won an auction from GFF on RBA for "12+ Greenfire Farms Isbar Day-Old Chicks -- New Bloodline!" In this listing, they show pictures of their original line Isbars with the statement "The birds pictured on this auction represent the quality of the stock we are raising." They are still using this same listing so you can look it up on RBA. Unless the original line (no red leakage showing on their birds) and the new line are essentially the same quality, that is false advertising in my book. If they are so proud of their new line, why are they using pictures of their original line in their listings?

2. The first week of September, when my chicks were shipped, the temperatures were in the high 80s to low 90s here and likely higher in Florida. 12+ chicks in a box was plenty to keep warm. Adding more chicks to a small box in that heat only increased the chances that they would overheat and die, not decreased them.

3. Any chicks in that shipment that were NOT Isbars should have been clearly marked with a toe punch or leg band or other method of identification. There was no differentiation among the chicks which tells me they should all be the same breed. With this in mind, it is possible that the mottled chicks did come from their Isbar breeding program which opens up a whole different can of worms.

4. I received 19 chicks in the shipment. When I inquired of GFF as to what they were so that I could sort them out (this was after I sent pictures of the 3 mottled birds), I was told there were 13 Isbar, 2 Orust and 1 Swedish Flower. Great, that leaves 3 chicks unaccounted for. What breed are they? You say " If you don't want them, cull them or give them away.", but since the 13 Isbars that I paid for were not marked and they all looked essentially like Isbars (except the mottled ones), which ones should I have given away? I had to grow them out to be sure what they were. I had already sold some of the extras before finding out that some may not really be Isbars. When I started to question it, I assured those that bought them that if, in fact, they did not turn out to be Isbars, I would replace them with chicks from my original line of birds. I stand behind what I sell. As to keeping and feeding out the mottled chicks, I was assured that every chick in that box was purebred. Purebred birds, especially of rare breeds, are worth keeping as someone can probably use them even if I can't. I wanted that to be true and would still welcome anyone that can prove to me that the mottled birds are purebred anything that GFF has. In such case, I would publicly apologize for insinuating that they are mutts.

5. I am not nearly as anonymous as you would like to think.

To answer your original question (Did you not get the number of Isbars you ordered?) before you changed your post this morning (yes, I saw it), my answer would have to be - I don't know. After 4.5 months, I still don't know yet. I am reasonably assured that I did, but I won't know for sure until I see each and every pullet lay a green egg and hatch some out to make sure they breed true. Purchasing from a professional breeder, I shouldn't have to wait that long to make sure that what I got is what I paid for.

 

[Scatterknit]

The Rare Breed Auction links directly to their Terms and Conditions. You seem determined to feel victimized however so I'll leave you to it.

 

[KYTinpusher]

The Rare Breed Auction links directly to their Terms and Conditions. You seem determined to feel victimized however so I'll leave you to it.

http://www.rarebreedauctions.com/au...ay-old-chicks-new-bloodline&auction_id=126200

This listing is identical to the one I bid on. Not only does it NOT contain a link to the terms and conditions, they are not even mentioned and the link to their website does not work. Get your FACTS straight.

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

*watching, and noticing...*

 

[KYTinpusher]

@Scatterknit - Did you happen to notice how they advertise their Isbars in this listing? - "

They are a completely new bloodline of exceptional quality and hardiness that we hope can improve the populations of Isbars in the U.S. today."​

In spite of your attempts to attack my character, integrity and intelligence, I forgive you.​

 

[tnmommy]

Going to jump into this as a relative newcomer...I was excited to see the drop in prices at Greenfire Farms but now I'm not so sure. We don't technically even have a breed standard for the Isbar, do we?

 

[KYTinpusher]

Going to jump into this as a relative newcomer...I was excited to see the drop in prices at Greenfire Farms but now I'm not so sure. We don't technically even have a breed standard for the Isbar, do we?

No, there is no breed standard. What Martin Silverudd accomplished before he died on this breed was a line of very productive, single-combed, green-egg-laying chickens in the colors of BBS and white. It is believed that the white variety is extinct. From my readinds on the breed, no official description of the breed was filed before his death. From what I have read about Isbars in Sweden, some of them do have red leakage, but I believe it is considered undesirable, at least by some. I am still trying to nail down the official description being used by the conservation groups there.

 

[KYTinpusher]

This blog has some good info: https://bokeslundsgarden.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/avelsagg/

 

[Dispatch273]

Wow...I'm really glad I am following this thread. I had heard a few bad things about GFF but this info in this thread just astounds me. I had planned on getting a few chicks from them but definitely will not now. I'll find another breeder...