Java Thread

[flowerchild59]

So sorry to hear about your hatch.

 

[Chickielady]

So will breeding two mottled produce an occasional black???? Or White???

Only if they both have that gene necessary.

 

[Chickielady]

Ah, the "snobbery" of chicken breeding

My mottleds came from a breeder that got her mottleds from Urch. Not sure how/why this "mottled" boy of mine turned up black with gold feathering except those odd little recessive genes popped up. Maybe at some point we can do some lab testing of the auburns to see the genetic line more clearly (I am nosy and just think it'd be interesting to know). I am hoping I will get a good mottled boy out of our group to breed with. Thought we had one, but he injured his leg and now is not going to be able to breed well so counting on the younger ones to have at least one good boy to work with the mottleds. Then we'll see what we are going to do with our black/gold boy. Had what I believe would have been 2 whites but they died. They were quite runty and I'm thinking that perhaps something with the whites have a lethal gene or something in there.

It's all quite fascinating and I am reading what I can of all the genetics stuff. I found that 1920s chicken breeding book on a university site that has old books scanned into pdfs. I feel like I am being spoonfed with a shovel and not retaining as much of this genetic/breeding stuff as I'd like. I really would like to see what those blue javas that popped out look like. A lady in OH had them hatch.

Interesting on the white "lethal gene" issue....never have heard of that before.
Several folks on this thread have expressed a desire to genetically test their birds.
I have no idea how it is done (other than blood sample) or where/who to send it to.
Maybe I should ask Monte ?

 

[Chickielady]

My black/gold boy came from mottleds. Not sure what percentage of blacks/whites can come up in mottleds but it obviously can and does happen.

It has never happened in pure bloodlines.
I have asked Monte Bowen & others about the Auburn & they were kinda upset & said " if an Auburn was an occasional "sport" from Black or Mottled java, don't ya think we would have had some by now ?"
Referring to the hundreds if not thousands of chicks they hatch each year, for decades.
I personally have never had such a "sport" either.
If anyone has an interest in such an issue, or where you can get genetic testing done, I urge you to e-mail Monte Bowen & ask him.


Edited to add: Ask him because I have no idea how/where to test or any other issues about it other than what was told to me.
I know very little to nothing about the whole Garfield thing, I was not there...only know of the stories told to me.
I am just telling ya what I was told.

 

[Chickielady]

He's actually pretty big. How big are they normally? It doesn't much matter to me as he is just around as flock protection and because we like him, but he is much larger than most of the roosters I have seen.

he is very pretty, nice even spots, and judging only by the size of his wattles/comb to his body, he looks smallish.
Like a Bantam fowl.

5 mo old Black Java cockerel



Two chicks, one with the lighter face/coloring is carrying the mottled genes.
This baby may have lighter eye color or an occasional spot & will not be able to be shown as a Black java
See this pic:


A beautiful totally black java hen...but she has light eyes, so she has the mottled gene lurking...she cannot be shown as a black or mottled java.
If I breed 2 such birds, I may well get mottled off spring.
If you notice the hen next to her, she has the required dark eyes of Black Javas, as does the cockerel shown above.
Hope this helps a little.

 

[Chickielady]

How long ago does Monte think that someone bred another breed with a black java to get an auburn?

In the old 1920s book "The Mating and Breeding of Poultry" there is mention of red and straw colors that pop up in black javas - "The color of both sexes should, of course, be black throughout, free from any foreign color, which is most apt to occur as red or straw in hackle, back wing bows and saddle of males, or as white or gray inthe wings and at the root of tail"

Red/straw color is mentioned more than once in the book and says that they are colors "most apt to occur" . By this book's publishing date, that would mean that it's been more than 100 years since someone bred another chicken into the black javas to get the auburn genes in the gene pool.

I have seen photos of the new auburns - and they don't look very java-like. But obviously there is some sort of recessive gene that has caused auburn-y colors as far back as the early 20th century or these guys would not have written about it.

Curious minds would love to know.....

​

The best thing to tell you is to e-mail (or call) Monte & discuss it with him...just put "javas" in the subject line.

 

[Chickielady]

Oh boy do I feel like a fool now. I guess I should have researched more and asked a whole lot more questions about the "auburn" color before I went crazy and hatched so many eggs. I assumed, being the novice that I am, that the auburns were a project Java and when they finally reached the SOP they would be recognized by APA. Shame on me. I personally have never had any dealings with Monte Bowen but his reputation precedes him and I completely respect what he has to say. I am curious though if Javas are only black then why is the mottled recognized? It is just white and black vs. gold and black and when and where did it appear? So confusing. Another question is why would the MSI claim to have hatched them from java eggs and have facilitated a breeding program for them and why would Garfield Farms not have culled them if they weren't meeting the SOP for Javas and now Behl Farms and Bill York has the group of birds from MSI and are calling them Auburn Javas. UGG my head is spinning! If they are indeed a new breed then I completely agree with ChickieLady that they need to be renamed and standards for them need to set in place. Now that my bubble of java happiness has been burst I guess the responsible thing to do is just keep my auburn beautys separate from my sq javas, enjoy them for what they are, and focus my breeding energy on what is classified as "Java" according to the SOP. There is no sense in degrading the breed by contiuning to breed outside of the standards that was never my personal intention. I wish everyone a blessed day. Happy Hatching!

Exactly. There is no sense in fouling a pure line, in any case, in any breed whatsoever.
If you choose to have "Auburns" that is your right to do so...and they are pretty birds.
However, they are very different than Black Javas in size, feather quality, etc. They side by side do not look anything alike whatso ever.
The Black java has destinctive hackle I have not seen on any other breed, not like any.
Here is 2 shots to show you what I mean:
Saddle hackle on a Buckeye is pretty normal for almost all breeds...long "stringy" type hackle on saddle & cape (neck):




Notice how the hackle is long & skinny ?

Now the Java:


Java hackle is more 'V' shaped...........wider


Here is the Buckeye again:


Now you can see the difference between the small thin hackle & the java's larger pointed hackle.
Hopes this helps.

 

[Chickielady]

No one has proven that auburn javas are NOT javas. As I mentioned in an earlier post, which no one has answered, javas were known to have red and straw colored feathers come up in both the black and mottled javas way back 100 yrs ago ( per The Mating and Breeding of Poultry by Harry Lamon/Rob Slocum, Orange Judd Publishing Company, copyright 1920).

Whether or not today's auburn javas have something else mixed in them - I don't know. Kinda hard to know for sure without having genetic testing completed. While Monte is known to even a newbie like me, his opinion is still just that - an opinion. So I wouldn't freak out and think you are doing something wrong.

If you are breeding chickens merely to keep your own flock going for a continuous supply of eggs - then who cares what color javas you are breeding as long as you get the result you wanted?

If you are breeding for standard, then you would want to keep your javas separated anyway - such as any light eyed black javas you would keep aside since they should be carrying the mottled gene - and then you can breed them with other light eyed blacks or your known mottleds to try to breed to the SOP of mottleds. And any that come up with gold/red you keep separate and can breed with your auburns to further improve your auburns.

At this point, they are all javas in my opinion. So far when I have asked questions - I'm not getting scientific much less documented facts regarding java or heritage chicken breeding/genetics. Most of what I see bantered about is opinion and conjecture. I have not heard any mandate coming from the officers of the Java Breeders of America condemning anyone for having white or auburn or mottled javas. And according to information sent out - apparently some javas with blue coloring have hatched and there may be some history of blue javas (but it seems that there isn't a lot of good record keeping over the last 100+ yrs.)

Fact remains - these are your birds. Do what makes you happy. You have no idea what the future brings and auburn javas may at one time be recognized by the APA or other entity. Heck, the APA may not even exist in the future. If you are breeding healthy birds and they make you happy - who cares what color they are? Frankly, after seeing some of the discussions on other threads, I think there are too many chicken people that obviously do not work for a living and have too much time to spend nitpicking how other people choose to manage their flocks.

Tell you - I'd really love to get some more factual answers to my questions on this subject rather than hearing whether or not someone approves of my questions. Cuz it seems like there is a lot of opinions but not many facts that people want to throw out there.

If you have them & love them by all means keep them !
There is no one in the world who will tell you to "get rid of them " !!!!!!!!!!!
They are your babies, love them as any breed !
But if anyone wants to talk to monte...just e-mail him.
Or Duane, although Duane, the famous "man of few words" will probably have no time to "talk" this time of year (or any other time)
Monte is pretty good at answering.

 

[Chickielady]

ugh, no. crazy times. i am moving to the northeast for a big new job and having to sell off my entire project, including BJs, olive eggers, FBCMs, and ameracaunas. i will check into the pm, sorry.

I still owe her eggs from an egg swap last year ! When ever she settles down I will ship !

 

[Chickielady]

I have noticed on the 9 chicks that I hatched out that some have a definate yelllowish color and and some are more creamy. Does that mean anything or is it purely coinincidance? My coro sussex hen sure is a nice mama. Very sweet bird. Here is a cute shot of one of the chicks peeking out from her wing. You can see the down color I was talking about on the creamy colored chicks in the back of the picture and the more yellow one in the front.

Lighter java chicks may have the mottled gene, however, you need to breed 2 that have the gene to get a mottled chick.