Java Thread

[klcabe]

Ah. I didn't know hatcheries sold them. I may call and ask the person, though. You never know!

 

[bnjrob]

Ah. I didn't know hatcheries sold them. I may call and ask the person, though. You never know!

Tommysgirl is correct. Call and ask where they got their birds. If I remember correctly, there are several Java breeders in NC, including some that have been working on a Java preservation project, so it may be one of them advertising . But you won't know till you call. $10 is about in the middle for chicks from breeders. It can be hard to know and even then, the birds may not turn out as well as they should - sometimes even with the best looking parents, the genes of these birds can intermingle in weird ways and then not every chick will turn out as good looking as their parents.

 

[Bill Matthews]

TO klcabe...I believe that Urch-Turnland Poultry in MN has quality Javas...The Urch family is well respected and longtime poultry growers, involved with showing, judging and hatching...Their chicks are high quality and very reasonably priced in the $2.00 to $5.00 range I believe....Also, the Sand Hill Preservation Center in Iowa has Javas...But better order now for next year...Good Luck...Neither of these are typical production type hatcheries but try to propagate standard type chickens of several breeds...Both have a website...Take care.

 

[saladin]

Don't know about this year, but last year when Duane sent me his price list day old chicks of standard breeds were $6 each with a minimum order of 25. I'm guessing they might be even higher than that this year.

That comes to a good sized bill for a bunch of day olds. Duane does have good Javas though.

You will here that Duane has had a 'closed' flock for 40 plus years. This is not true.
He got birds of Monte just a few years back.

 

[MagicChicken]

Don't know about this year, but last year when Duane sent me his price list day old chicks of standard breeds were $6 each with a minimum order of 25. I'm guessing they might be even higher than that this year.

That comes to a good sized bill for a bunch of day olds. Duane does have good Javas though.

You will here that Duane has had a 'closed' flock for 40 plus years. This is not true.
He got birds of Monte just a few years back.

I agree about Urch's birds. I got 25 black java chicks from Mr. Urch in January. They were $7/chick. They are healthy black chickens and the pullets started laying at 4-5 months old, which was great. It is going to take several years of selective breeding to get these particular birds anywhere near show quality. To be fair, I did not specifically order birds for exhibition breeding, and I did not expect to get exhibition quality birds. I wanted to make sure this breed would do well in the conditions at my place before risking good adult breeders. And they are doing very well.

Watching these birds as they grow out, I suspect there are some other genes in there besides Java. But there are enough Java-type genes in the 25 birds I received to develop a decent-looking exhibition quality Java in a few years, assuming I don't have other issues (like predator attacks). Biggest issue in my particular birds is the feet. Very few of these birds have yellow soles. Since absence of yellow in the sole is a disqualification in Black Javas, this is a bigger issue than it seems. Most of my birds have white or pink soles and white skin.

Other issues include back line, eye color, undercolor, and cushions. None of the larger cockerels has a back line like a Java, with that slight downward slope and curve at the base of the tail. The cockerels with Java-like backs have all been smaller birds. With the pullets it's hard to tell what the back line is doing because they all have cushions that mess up the visual. (As luck would have it I wound up with a 2:1 ratio of cockerels to pullets, so I only have 8 pullets out of that run of 25 chicks.) About 2/3 of my birds have a whitish undercolor. It should be dull black. All but two of my birds have reddish-bay eyes, instead of the dark eye they are supposed to have.

Because none of my pullets has yellow soles, I am going to try developing two lines from these birds. Line 1 (working on yellow soles): Mate my longest, widest-backed pullets to my one yellow-soled cockerel (who is on the small side). Then mate the best pullets from that hatch back to their yellow-soled father. Looking for yellow-soled birds in Year 3.

Line 2 (working on size and keeping the dark-eye genes in the flock): Mate my widest-backed pullets to my two large cockerels, which happen to have white soles and skin. Looking for larger, dark-eyed pullets with longer, wide backs. Either mate those pullets back to their fathers to keep working on size, or if there is a good large, dark-eyed pullet in that first batch, breed her into the yellow-soled line to help improve size. By year 5 I might have a decent show quality bird.

Bottom line is if you want exhibition quality black javas, get a pair or trio of adult birds from Mr. Urch or from another reputable breeder - and tell them you want birds to breed for exhibition. If you want healthy black java-like chickens and are willing to work on them for a few years before showing them, a run of 25 chicks from Mr. Urch would be hard to beat.

Sarah

 

[saladin]

Excellent information.

Just a few years ago there were still several different Java lines out there. They still exist if you know where to go and who to talk with. Monte took Duane some birds because the size on Duane's can't match Montes'.

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, but Duane's birds aren't a bad place to start. Glenn's birds may even be a bit smaller than Duane's but they would represent a different line: the McGraw birds. The Mottled birds Glenn has are better than the McGraw birds; so, I know there is more in them than that.

I never liked the McGraw Mottled birds. Their Mottling was never as uniform as it should have been. Of course, I would hope that some with that line have made improvement in them over the last 15 years or so, but back when the doctor had them I just didn't care for them.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Who has the best strain of Colored Mottled Javas? How long would it take to improve this color miss match. What is more important good Java type first then improve color. I have seen breeds that have good color but have poor type and with out good type do you have the breed at heart. It seems the black Javas are getting better type on some strains.

Also, we may be able to increase our goal of 40 chicks of Dr. McGraws line to 60 chicks this spring. More on this latter and maybe be able to sell eggs. bob

 

[MagicChicken]

Excellent information.

Just a few years ago there were still several different Java lines out there. They still exist if you know where to go and who to talk with. Monte took Duane some birds because the size on Duane's can't match Montes'.

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, but Duane's birds aren't a bad place to start. Glenn's birds may even be a bit smaller than Duane's but they would represent a different line: the McGraw birds. The Mottled birds Glenn has are better than the McGraw birds; so, I know there is more in them than that.

I never liked the McGraw Mottled birds. Their Mottling was never as uniform as it should have been. Of course, I would hope that some with that line have made improvement in them over the last 15 years or so, but back when the doctor had them I just didn't care for them.

I weighed most of my Urch birds yesterday. They are nine months old. Four of the six remaining cockerels weigh 5.5-6.5 pounds. Two are just over 7 pounds. Cockerels should weigh 8 pounds. At least the two 7 pounders are within range and may be closer to standard weight by show time in November.

My pullets are very small. Most are 3.5-4.5 pounds at nine months old. Standard pullet weight is 6.5 pounds. Part of the weight problem with my pullets may be the feed - I lost my layer feed source a couple of months ago and the pullets have only gained half a pound in the two months they have been on the new feed. I am not happy with that growth rate and am looking for readily available feed alternatives.

Only one pullet is within a pound of standard weight at nine months. She weighs 5.5 pounds. Of course, she happens to be the bird with the narrowest tail. I will probably breed her anyway just because of her size - if I pair her with my largest, widest-backed cockerel I might get some larger pullets with broader backs and tails. If not I will have more egg layers and stew meat.

I did accidentally cull what was arguably my best cockerel when he was fourteen weeks old. I was overrun with cockerels and had to reduce the numbers because the fighting was getting out of control. It looked like this big guy had a problem with his beak so I culled him. As I was dressing him out I realized that he had just broken the tip and it would probably have grown back just fine, but by then it was too late. He was one of my largest birds and one of the few birds with yellow soles. On the other hand he did break his beak and many others did not, so I don't really regret the cull.

Just for kicks I went to the Feathersite.com website and checked out the Java photos there. Hadn't looked at them in a long time. My birds look similar to most of the Black Javas pictured on that site. They're not perfect but they're pretty darned wonderful.

Sarah

 

[bnjrob]

I weighed most of my Urch birds yesterday. They are nine months old. Four of the six remaining cockerels weigh 5.5-6.5 pounds. Two are just over 7 pounds. Cockerels should weigh 8 pounds. At least the two 7 pounders are within range and may be closer to standard weight by show time in November.

My pullets are very small. Most are 3.5-4.5 pounds at nine months old. Standard pullet weight is 6.5 pounds. Part of the weight problem with my pullets may be the feed - I lost my layer feed source a couple of months ago and the pullets have only gained half a pound in the two months they have been on the new feed. I am not happy with that growth rate and am looking for readily available feed alternatives.

Only one pullet is within a pound of standard weight at nine months. She weighs 5.5 pounds. Of course, she happens to be the bird with the narrowest tail. I will probably breed her anyway just because of her size - if I pair her with my largest, widest-backed cockerel I might get some larger pullets with broader backs and tails. If not I will have more egg layers and stew meat.

I did accidentally cull what was arguably my best cockerel when he was fourteen weeks old. I was overrun with cockerels and had to reduce the numbers because the fighting was getting out of control. It looked like this big guy had a problem with his beak so I culled him. As I was dressing him out I realized that he had just broken the tip and it would probably have grown back just fine, but by then it was too late. He was one of my largest birds and one of the few birds with yellow soles. On the other hand he did break his beak and many others did not, so I don't really regret the cull.

Just for kicks I went to the Feathersite.com website and checked out the Java photos there. Hadn't looked at them in a long time. My birds look similar to most of the Black Javas pictured on that site. They're not perfect but they're pretty darned wonderful.

Sarah

There is old literature that reports size has been a problem in Javas since the 20th century. But I'm already seeing in our flock how breeding choices, time of hatching (winter), and separating by gender at an early age can all have a positive effect in making improvements in size. I know the pain of having to cull a large male - just had to butcher one because it came from a project mating and didn't fit any criteria for our project or SOP mating pens. Sometimes you just have to cull no matter what and work with what is left. It may make things go a little more slowly, but sometimes it is better to go slow and not risk having to mess with a defect of some kind just to try to make a significant jump in size by keeping those biggest birds with other issues.

 

[ashandvine]

Size and eggs are the things that seem hardest to breed for though. I think I would be tempted to keep the best of the big ones and ignore small flaws because of how tough working type is.