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You can't teach or train a dog to do something unless it has the basic foundation instinct in place. Like you can teach a dog to paw a piano, but not play Mozart unless it is pretaped and you get the dog to hit "play" on the recording.
When I took my ACDs in for their HIC (Herding Instinct Certification), it was put on by the hair Lassie dog owners. There was not a shred of instinct to herd in way too many of the Lassie dogs...NONE. They dogs were terrified by the sheep in the pen and plastered themselves against the walls of the pen! There would be some battle to get those kinds to herd anything, even their shadows. Too many generations of show dogs, hairy stand stacked, never nip or show a shred of herding instinct. Not wanted and the outcome roared the utter truth!
My mutts on the other hand, both showed gather, showed driving, balanced the stock; totally passed with flying colours. But you also gotta know in the show ring, it would take nada to set one off and have them herd the dog OR handler in front. Yikes...not allowed and would get you dismissed from the conformation ring. In fact, HyBlade was such a handful that when I hired a handler on very short notice...to run him stupid round the ring because both him and Makins were in the ring together (I can't be two places at once), he had the conformation judge laughing, roaring, in stiches...why? Because HyBlade figured the woman I had hired to run him round was not moving fast enough...so he helped her...he nipped her. She let out a squeal (yeh, act like stock would...good gack!) and I know the judge knew she should have dismissed him for biting in the ring but she agreed...with the dog...MOVE FASTER ALREADY...and how does a dog communicate that...by biting.
Dogs took up residence with humans long time ago...first by eating from our messy garbage piles and then us humans realizing the dogs could help us...immensely! First domesticated animal...man's best friend for sure. We have abused and used canines for thousands upon thousands of years...in some cases the advancement of the human plague would not have progressed as fast without dogs....to tote our loads, help us hunt, protect us and keep the cave habitable...oh the things we owe to the dog, eh.
See this...I am advancing, the ruminants are moving because the girls are...
BLOCKING the stock
Now the girls move towards me and PUSH the stock (drive) them inside the corral...
No stragglers, still light out, chores might get done before DARK sets in...good dogs!
See how Lacy is looking at the stock, if there was a need for a bit of encouragement...you know which one would go in for the PUSH...
Tara Lee Higgins - March 7, 1999:
The Purpose of the Breed
In 1813, the Australian pioneers were settling vast areas of suitable grazing land for cattle. The European working dogs they had brought with them worked just fine in the Sydney metropolitan area where stock was brought short distances to market. But for the colonization of the interior, the European dogs could not stand up to the climate, terrain, great distances and general working conditions. Stock let loose on the large cattle stations were not accustom to people or dogs. They were not at all controllable and a new breed of dog was needed to muster these wild cattle on the unfenced grazing land and in rugged bushland.
The Australians desired a silent, forceful working dog that could withstand temperature extremes, tirelessly travel great distances and herd livestock on the open range or in close confines. The resulting Australian Cattle Dog met these requirements and proved to be indispensable, both as a loyal family companion and an intelligent working stock dog. Mr. Robert Kaleski wrote the first standard for the breed in 1897.
This is what the fella that made the first ACD Standard has to say the purpose of the breed is...
There has to be basic instinct to start with...without instinct of the right sort...lost cause. Training of the right kind, of course...more ways than not to ruin a good dog. I laugh at persons that send dogs off to be trained. The ones that kill me are the herding ones. Yeh, the dog learns to obey the person using something it was born with. Sure knowing the ropes is one thing but if you think a dog is like a tractor and implements, where you turn the key and go to work...I got a few good bridges to sell you too. The DOG and YOU are the team...and no real amount of training without both members of the TEAM present will really work much. I know you can learn the whistles or commands and with some breeds like the amiable Border Collies, it is like anyone at the helm will do yah but in most cases, the training is of the team, not just one side of the equation. My opinion of course.
A seasoned dog is a real treat for a human to learn on, but learn and apply together is the key component. I have heard tall tales of dogs that sit by the side lines and watch an older dog (risking of course the new dog picking up the old dog's bad habits!) and then one day, go in and like an old hand, do well at whatever they were absorbing. I am an advocate of never not having a dog in the wings, younger one learning how to take up the job when the other gets old or hurt. We promised Fixins (who abhorred other dogs) no young pup would ever steal her thunder. In retrospect...now you see why we have two girls, six days apart in age. I do not EVER want to be ACDless again.
I find the dogs get better as they get older. Fifteen minute training sessions where you always end on a good note...even sitting to take a treat is a GOOD END to a day's lesson that maybe did not seem too productive. Love older dogs maybe because you both invest in each other, learn each other's pros and cons...you progress as a team because you invested in each other and keep learning as you progress together.
I love five year old dogs the best as my working companion. Not too young to be physically harmed by hard work, not too young to be mentally incapable and flighty...and yet old enough that yeh, you can't teach a dog new tricks (sometimes the WRONG ones) and ruin a dog otherwise. You got what you got...you like them and you know their bad habits that YOU the person and supposed knowledgeable one, allowed to get set in the dog. Too bad, so sad, you got what you got, for better or worse like in a marriage.
Wisher, I would allow her to help and that be that. When or if you develop a problem the both of you cannot fix and say a bird ends up dead and you figure you can't ever avoid it happening, then I would contemplate quitting having her help you. Not helping when things end up dead. She seems to already know how to keep pushy stock back from you as needed...if she gets more confident, would that not mean she gets better at helping? At knowing her job and what that entails. If you left her unattended and there was no person to say, ENOUGH...then maybe there is an issue with getting carried away and harming instead of helping. I would expect all your dogs have access if watched by a human. I never let the girls alone with stock as I figure, they might think it fun to invite the sheep to play...and their idea of play time is not what a sheep would enjoy without human intervention to say, "Enough is enough...we go play with toys now."
In the past, my ACDs learned alot of their moves for stock on soccer balls. Stripped them of their coatings and I shudder thinking back then to how a sheep left to their doggy devices would have looked stripped of its woolly coating. Until I had some stops and control, the dogs never got to play on stock. These two girls, were on birds within the month of being here...they have excellent manners and pose no risk to the wellbeing of the chooks...wonderful girls.
Thing about dogs, we can contain them and not let them out when things are dicey or even if you are not in the mood to deal with dogs--crate the dog if you have no patience--we are in the driver's seat to when is dog time!
Sounds like to me she knows what is expected and if she volunteers to be UNhelpful, that would be when I no longer took her along without a focus on correcting the unhelpful behaviours.
In the meantime, I would enjoy the chore dog she seems to want to be. Will the good times get ruined, maybe but how will you know if you don't keep at it. Like calling her "guilty" when she has never done anything to warrant that.
If you'll excuse me puttin' my oar in . . . .
I would say that a lot of it is instinct - I had a couple of Shepherd mixes that worked together with frightening skill, considering that they had no training at all (I believe those two could have herded cats - they certainly tried!). Herding is, after all, the first few steps of hunting prey; channeling the built-in prey drive and stopping it before the kill is what training is all about. Untrained dogs of herding breeds can be a real danger to livestock; all those years of finely-tuned instinct can turn deadly when there's no one there to direct it.
Do you remember the sheep-killing incident in the movie Babe? Tara may correct me on this, but I have long heard that the scenario played out in the movie is actually pretty common; one or two larger dogs with possibly some herding blood, and a smaller, high-prey-drive dog like a terrier, working as a pack to attack the sheep herd. Having lost rabbits to my own dogs on a few occasions, and having seen just how high the drive on a small dog can be, I wouldn't trust your little dog with your chickens any time you couldn't see what she was doing.
I posted the photo of the girls doing the prey/hunting circle.
That is exactly what they formed...they are holding the sheep for me to waddle in and take one of the sheep out... Respecting I was the lead dog that dispatched the prey. Sounds pretty ruthless and it is that basic. The girls have to understand property too...in a dog pack, there are only certain members allowed certain luxuries and the girls know my ducks, chooks, sheep, etc. are MINE to do with as I please. I get to direct the pack and do the "killing" which in the sheep's case is the barn corral gates are open and the sheep are driven in there. Miraculously I guess, the sheep are re-incarnated after each killing I make of them, or so maybe the thought process goes. Dunno, not a dawg, eh?
Surprising the little dogs get away with tons of terrible behaviours because simply put, they are CUTE and seem harmless being nasty BAD...if a Great Dane was allowed to be as dominant as some of these poof poof toy dogs...we'd be having total hissy fits over it. Past my Heelers that nose and nip and taste me daily, the only dog that ever BIT me badly was the small cute ones. Allowed to get away because the humans do not see them as a serious threat!
Now to counter, in these newbie members...if their pets can access and harm their birds...what is saying the next attack is not predators marauding around? One's facilities have to be predator proof (even in the city, coyotes and coons are a risk, flying birds of prey can drop by for a snack...never mind the PETS and well meaning children!). Fence out the risks and your chicks might live to be geriatric birds like many of ours are.
Course the widdle dogs are going to act like this...being small we allow behaviours to run rampant because they are cute...no threat really...until something gets ate or bit by one.
Inside every dog is the wolf...or as they are now saying, some sorta form of extinct wolf like beast. A dog is a dog is a dog with teeth. Many humans get bit badly by Fido for thinking the wild wolf can be completely tamed. How often has the Dingo ate my Baby when in reality...the question is more, "Why is the baby and dog alone unsupervised?" I trust my dog completely, the one I don't trust is the baby not to pull the dog's ears, or bite the dog or do something to incite the dog to defend itself...yeh. Supervision so things don't get outta hand, eh.
Victorian age one used dogs to rat. The dogs are far better than poisons and traps because they target the rats specifically. It was considered at one time one of those blood sports to put a dog in a pit against multiple rats.
Lovely sporting event...shall I make
to view it?
Love terriers and they were bred to kill vermin. Smart, energetic, able to take on noxious rodents and kill efficiently. Great dogs...but as with working dogs, need a job to do! We bred them that way.
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
