Keeping warm in winter

[3KillerBs]

Well there you have it. There is no definition of cold hardy. It seems from what I've read that if they didn't die under cold conditions then they received the title of cold hardy.

It's not impossible to believe but growing extra feathers for winter...

People have moved Jungle Fowl from tropical environments to cold environments and some at least have lived. Does this make Jungle Fowl cold hardy?

We're not talking about jungle fowl.

 

[NatJ]

I read for example that cold hardy chickens grow extra feathers for the winter. That's an interesting biological trick given each feather needs a follicle to grow from. I wonder how the chicken manages that.

Naked Necks have fewer feather follicles.
Feather-legged breeds have feather follicles on the legs where other breeds do not.

Some chickens (like Malays or purebred Cornish) have feathers that barely cover their body, and some skin shows through in places. Some other chickens (like Brahmas and Orpingtons) have feathers that cover the body much more thoroughly. The difference may be in the number of feather follicles, or it may be in the structure of the feathers, but the difference certainly does exist.

Extra feathers just for the winter, I think unlikely. But more feathers all year long seems to be a fact for some breeds. That difference could partly explain both cold-hardy breeds and heat-tolerant breeds: more feathers are good in cold weather but cause trouble in hot weather.

There is lots of stuff on comb types. While it may be true that particular comb types are less prone to frosbite, it has nothing at all to do with the overall ability of the chicken to not feel cold.

Larger combs let chickens lose body heat more effectively (good in hot climates). It stands to reason that a large comb would force the chicken to make more body heat during a cold winter. So a small comb would increase the ability of the chicken to tolerate cold. (Avoiding frostbite is a nice side benefit.)

There is no definition of cold hardy. It seems from what I've read that if they didn't die under cold conditions then they received the title of cold hardy.

The one that dies is definitely NOT cold hardy.
Just like one that dies in hot weather is not tolerant of heat.

Since there are breed differences in which ones die in what conditions, then it makes sense to have some term to describe which breeds do what. "Cold hardy" and "heat tolerant" seem to cover it pretty well

 

[3KillerBs]

The one that dies is definitely NOT cold hardy.
Just like one that dies in hot weather is not tolerant of heat.

And it makes sense to choose one's breeds based on these factors because any management system that requires intensive inputs of energy, time, etc. is subject to breaking down when those inputs become unavailable.

 

[RojoMarz]

Do you have a picture of what this might look like? Would expect them to sleep in something like this instead of roosting?

A huddle box could really be anything that provides some shelter for them...I have a doghouse in my run. It's supposed to be the dust bath, but they don't use it for that.

 

[WI chickens]

It seems they can endure all sorts of discomfort; endure being the operative word.
The cold hardy reasoning from what I've read is mainly based on they didn't drop dead; well not very many anyway.
People happily assume that a chickens feathers are there to keep them warm. What is a bird whose ancestors lived and live in a temperature range of 25 Centigrade (77F) to 38 Centigrade (100F) doing wandering around with a thermal quilt on? They don't need to be kept warm in those temperatures.
Obviously something is wrong with the reasoning process.

After keeping chickens for 10+ years, I think I can tell if my birds are happy or just enduring life. I can tell my birds are healthy and happy in an open air coop when it is regularly -20F, and sometimes much colder.

How did a chihuahua get to be 4 lbs, a retriever learn to bring back birds without leaving a mark, the St Bernard and Mastiff get to be 250+ lbs? How can a bloodhound smell a track four days old and an english bulldog can't smell it's food bowl? How come a mexican hairless has no hair? After all, their ancestors are wolves.

The Audubon Society says this "Birds survive in sub-zero weather by fluffing their feathers, creating layers of air and feathers. Just a fraction of an inch of this insulation can keep a bird’s body temperature at 104 degrees, even in freezing weather. " Maybe there is something wrong with their reasoning process.

Is your contention that feathers do not keep a chicken warm?

​

 

[Shadrach]

We're not talking about jungle fowl.

I was. You may not be.

 

[Shadrach]

Wow ... that's a really high bar for 'cold hardy.'

It is. I make no excuses for it. The reason that the bar is high is because there are further issues that rest on this seemingly arbitary standard of cold hardy.

I would argue that huskies have not 'evolved' they are the way they are because they were bred that way by humans. Now granted, the dog has been being human bred for many thousands of years more than the chicken. At the same time, most of those thousands of years were probably more gradual selective breeding than the intensive breeding practices of the last 500 years for the chicken.

Fair comment. My bad.
The thing I want to be clear on is the Huskies fur type is not the same as most other breeds. I believe that the fibres are hollow. There are other differences but my dog knowledge is minimal.

My arguement then is the Husky is a cold hardy dog, because there are identifiable difference common in the breed. Their physiology has changed.
I would like to see a proper explanation of why such and such a chicken is cold hardy.

Certainly, I have no evidence to share. At the same time, I will go back to pointing out that anecdotal evidence (and if we dig can probably find empirical) some breeds handle heat better than others. Is it not reasonable to conclude that feather structures that make it harder for one variety to handle heat would likely make it easier for that variety to handle cold?

Heat handling is an interesting one. The thermodynamic limit is governed by the chickens ability to transfer heat from itself to it's environment (hot source to cold sink) As soon as the two are in temperature balance the transfer stops and the chicken dies.
Jungle fowl, the chickens in Catalonia, even my uncles chickens looked comfortable at temperatures around 35C provided they could find adequate shade. At higher temeratures 40+ in Catalonia it was obvious they were uncomfortable. Given the chickens core body temp is around 41C that isn't a large temperature tolerance.

At the other end there seems to be a much larger tolerance with chickens surviving sub zero temperatures.
Hot range 35C to 41C
Cold range 25C to ? , possibly -15C

One indication of what is a comfortable temperature range for more modern breeds is where they have established feral populations. I realise there are other factors such as food availability etc, but climate must have a major influence. The temperature range in which these feral populations flourish isn't far off the temperature range of their ancestors.

I haven't counted all the feathers on a chicken. I did read an average on some site or other.

This is an interesting idea ...and I won't discount it. But, I'm not sure it is consistent with observation. Certainly it would be interesting to see experimentation with stock from various sources and varieties and see how they compare. It is very easy to accept that something is the way it is simply because it is repeated constantly. Also, many ideas supported by 'science' are done so with 'bad science.' (A great example of this is 'opossums eat ticks.') Sometimes, we just have to deal with the information we have.

I would be curious to see a comparison (feather structure, etc) between 'cold hardy' birds and their not cold hardy counterparts .... such as owls. Then, see if any differences discovers parallel different varieties of chickens.

And, we may need to distinguish between 'cold hardy' and the 'ability of the chicken to not feel cold.'

Yep. I would be interested in seeing studies that dealt with the physiological changes in chickens that dealt with temperature comfort range. From what I've read the basic physiology of the chickens hasn't changed much for a few thousand years while their appearance has.

 

[3KillerBs]

I realise there are other factors such as food availability etc, but climate must have a major influence.

Food availability is probably the #1 thing about climate where chickens are concerned.

Historically on small farms in severe winter areas the chickens lived in the unheated barns and sheds along with the other livestock. But they were fed and watered (or were fed and watered as a byproduct of feeding the large stock. It's even said that they sometimes roosted in trees even in below-freezing weather.

But there is no way that chickens could possibly find food in an area where the ground was blanketed in feet of snow for months and where liquid water was unavailable for those same months.

Even in my area, which rarely sees snow more than a handful of times in 3-4 years and even more rarely sees snow that lasts more than a few days, there would not be food available to support feral chickens because it's an impoverished ecology with low species diversity and low biological productivity (the Sandhills region of the southeastern US).

It's the food availability, not the temperatures themselves, that are why we don't have feral chickens outside of subtropical regions.

 

[Shadrach]

This is a picture of chickens feeling cold. Their feathers are fluffed up. Their head are pulled. They keep still more to conseve energy. They are where they are because the coop tarpaulin und the undergrowth in that area protect them from the wind. No, they are not dying but it is apparent that they are not comfortable.

This is a picture of the same chickens on a warm day.

Unless someone can come up with a very extraordinary explanation for the differences in demeanor and location I think it's fair to say they are feeling the cold. No, they are not dying.
To put perspective on the above it was 9C with a steady 12mph Westerly wind.

 

[Shadrach]

Food availability is probably the #1 thing about climate where chickens are concerned.

Historically on small farms in severe winter areas the chickens lived in the unheated barns and sheds along with the other livestock. But they were fed and watered (or were fed and watered as a byproduct of feeding the large stock. It's even said that they sometimes roosted in trees even in below-freezing weather.

But there is no way that chickens could possibly find food in an area where the ground was blanketed in feet of snow for months and where liquid water was unavailable for those same months.

Even in my area, which rarely sees snow more than a handful of times in 3-4 years and even more rarely sees snow that lasts more than a few days, there would not be food available to support feral chickens because it's an impoverished ecology with low species diversity and low biological productivity (the Sandhills region of the southeastern US).

It's the food availability, not the temperatures themselves, that are why we don't have feral chickens outside of subtropical regions.

Possibly. However as you kind of point out yourself, the temperature or climate also has a big impact on what forage is available.
Food may be more important though.