Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[Ridgerunner]

My goal is to create a dual purpose landrace bird that thrives on forage, can out-compete predator pressure, makes excellent parents and is non-aggressive to humans and flock mates. I eventually want a bird that can thrive without human help if necessary.

To achieve this you will need to rely a lot on natural selection. But when one volunteers to be removed from the equation like that cockerel you can certainly help him along.

 

[CraziChknLady]

Hi there,
This is a topic I have a lot of interest in, so I'll share my experience. In 2013, I started a free range flock that involved a thai aseel rooster, and hens of these breeds: Thai Aseel, Old English Game Bantam, Egyptian Fayoumi, Silver Phoenix, and an assortment of laying breeds whose genetics do not seems to have made the cut. Most birds were from breeders, except the Fayoumi and layers, which came from a hatchery.
Since then I have added very little new blood, relying on natural selection to play a large part in the success of the flock. Multiple broods were hatched by the hens each year. The traits that have persisted most are those of Phoenix (good mothering, predator- resistant coloring), Thai Aseel (upright posture, excellent predator awareness), and Egyptian Fayoumi (general wariness and wiliness). The Old English Game Bantam DNA has also contributed to overall appearance.
The birds are mid-sized with pea combs or small single combs and athletic builds. They are variably silver partridge, lemon partridge and wheaten. The roosters are gentle, good flock protectors, and tend toward the upright aseel build. The hens are broody, flighty, and quick, and tend toward a build more similar to an Old English Game. They lay a reasonable number of eggs in season, but once everyone goes broody, laying drops off.
The birds are also remarkably healthy. Since starting this breeding program I have had few/no issues with disease or internal parasites (I did spray Elector PSP for lice this year, but my two hatchery orpingtons were affected much more than the mixed breed chickens). I have not needed to worm in years- I suspect the birds are eating something that is a natural wormer when they forage. The birds that are taken by predators tend to be very old, very young, or low ranking cockerels. Healthy adults tend to be too fast for most predators and have a good flight ability. Those that survive to adulthood are long lived. My oldest bird of this lineage has survived near 10 years on free range (phoenix, old english, and, surprise! Antwerp bearded belgian! She's in the last photo).

My free range system involves letting the birds out of secure coops in the morning, and locking them up at night. During the hours of daylight they are free to do as they wish. If there is a predator around and I see it, I of course do go out to help drive it away. If the birds decide it's not safe and go into the pen, I will help by latching the door. Some days they are confined to the pen, such as when there is a storm or if I have company who does not prefer chickens sharing their space. So they're not fully on their own, but the chicks are hatched and raised with the flock and free range as soon as their mother decides it's time to leave the nest.

This year I'm changing it up by adding liege fighters. So far, I'm in love with their gentle, confident personalities, but other than large size, I'm not sure what they'll contribute that the flock doesn't already have.

Check out FloridaBullforg's thread if you haven't already, lots of incredible information here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-survival-junglefowl-x-liege.1424023/page-121


Sorry for the novel, here are some pictures:



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Very interesting! How many of each breed did you start with? How do you cull what you don't want?

 

[CraziChknLady]

Mine make use of more than five acres, less than thirty - and as @Ridgerunner expressed, the tribe thing is a definite reality. I find that my Roos each stake out a territory/feeding ground, then call for the hens to join them (usually between two and six answer the call). Occasionally, hens switch groups - Roos rarely switch territory unless I've culled on recently and remixed the flock dynamics.

Do you keep all of them together in one coop and they separate on their own during the day? Or do you have separate coops and areas for each roo and his girls?

 

[LaurenRitz]

To achieve this you will need to rely a lot on natural selection. But when one volunteers to be removed from the equation like that cockerel you can certainly help him along.

I found him another home. He'll have a bunch of girls and no competition.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Do you keep all of them together in one coop and they separate on their own during the day? Or do you have separate coops and areas for each roo and his girls?

They have a single coop - though the door is always open. They separate on their own during the day. Come together when I bring out feed, and often to sleep. Sometimes, small groups will sleep elsewhere - I have a couple shelves that are popular, including one in/on the goat barn.

 

[LaurenRitz]

And... two girls are pancaked since that cockerel left. Both stayed on the nest last night, and the timing is perfect. They are both presiding over empty nests, and months ago I purchased a set of chicks that are supposed to arrive the week of the 10th.

One of them has never gone broody before, the other is experienced.

I'm excited for the next stage.

 

[Wild Iris]

I'm asking for behavior insight and advice here because I suspect y'all may have more experience with game-hybrids in a flock that forages. This is my first year with chickens. I believe I've said before--my goal is a flock for eggs that forages for at least half its food & is robust enough to replenish whatever is lost to predators. We have 40+ acres of woods/grassland available to the flock.

Besides seven barnyard mixes & Tractor Supply chickens, I have a rescued game hen--I don't know her history, but she is sweet, personable, and nonaggressive. Fairly low in the pecking order, slightly aloof from the other hens, but definitely part of the flock. This spring she hatched 6 eggs; rooster dad was a dominique/barnyard cross. She has never stayed in the coop, and has full access to free range as well as chick food and water. The chicks are 5 1/2 weeks old and follow her everywhere.

A week or so ago, one chick (calling him Rufus) began hopping onto her back and biting her on the head. She would squawk and dump him off. I posted on the behavior forum and got a response that this sometimes happens with very young cockerels but nothing to worry about. I watched closely but didn't see Rufus being unusually aggressive toward the other chicks.

Today, however, I came home and found two chicks fighting fiercely; one was Rufus. I watched from the window for several minutes, noticing that one would "win" and Rufus would submit for a minute, and then he would jump back up to keep fighting. Mama hen went over to check it out, but didn't interfere. After a few minutes longer, I became concerned and went to investigate.

Neither foot nor a stick would separate the fighters. I tried to distract with cheese--they went straight back to fighting. Finally Rufus tried to run away and got stuck squeezing under the house. The other chased and attempted to keep up the fight. I scooped up the other and popped him into a cat carrier, and helped Rufus hide under the house.

Then I discovered a third chick had apparently already has his turn in the brawl--his head was bloody and he was missing feathers.

Tonight I have managed to put the two losers into separate crates to keep them safe from the others. Rufus looks quite horrible. His whole head is entirely bare of feathers, and blood was running down his chest. He was very upset at being separated and attempted to fight the "winner" through his crate wire. The "winner" was slightly bloody and very disheveled; he kept his distance from mama and others, but nestled up to sleep at night. The third fighter cried for two minutes and went straight to sleep as soon as he had some peace.

I'm guessing all the fighters are male, but there's really no way to tell by their appearance at this age.

I am full of questions:

They're only half game--is it crazy that they are fighting like this, all of a sudden, at 5 weeks, or is this to be expected? I kept reading that if they had enough food & space that the chicks wouldn't fight.

My rooster died very unexpectedly a week ago--would the lack of a rooster make the male chicks start fighting very very early?

Could they somehow be fighting over food, even though they have a world to forage and I feed them chick feed several times a day?

Does this mean all of Game Mama's male chicks will be young fighters like these? What does this say about the personalities of these three? I thought that since both she and the rooster had such good personalities, their chicks would too.

How on earth do I proceed from here? I was expecting that I might have to rehome a couple cockerels, but not while they're still sleeping under mama's wing!

How long do I keep the injured ones separated? Should I expect this to happen again? Do I need to make permanently separate living arrangements for them?

If I got a rooster, would he keep the peace?

If one of these little fighters went into a new flock of mixed ages, would he be old enough to survive with them?

I really appreciate any help at all with this. I'm thrown for a loop and still rather shaken up. Dogs, cats, and chickens are all expected to get along on our hill, but now the baby chicks have decided to fight to the death.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This is only a theory, I don't know that I am correct. Some Games are bred for cockfighting. Not the ones you get from hatcheries or from most people but from certain private breeders. They do not fight hens, only cocks. When they raise them they have to keep the males separated. I've seen where they stake the males, attach a cord to a leg and stake them so they can't get to each other. You do not know the history of that hen.

Five weeks seems early for that behavior but I don't have any direct experience with a cock fighting operation. Maybe that is normal. I can be wrong but that is my theory, she was from a cockfighting operation. To avoid those genetics in your flock you may not want to keep any of her offspring. Not that the hens would fight but that they would continue to pass on those genetics.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

They're only half game--is it crazy that they are fighting like this, all of a sudden, at 5 weeks, or is this to be expected?

In my experience it's highly unusual what you're experiencing. I've never had cockerels injure each other, not with pure games, nor game mixes. They'll spar at young ages, but I've never seen any blood drawn or injuries occur

I suspect it might be the father's bloodline that's introduced the violent traits. If you read around online you'll find many stories of production roosters attacking people but zero stories of game roosters attacking people

All pure game males I've ever had behaved very nobly. Production males on the other hand are a crap-shoot. Mixing such bloodlines together may create very volatile chickens

A year ago I had Sumatra roosters and cockerels running around that were always kind to all chickens. They produced half Sumatra, half RIR cockerels that would try murdering newly hatched chicks. It was the RIR blood specifically that made them randomly violent to other chickens

My rooster died very unexpectedly a week ago--would the lack of a rooster make the male chicks start fighting very very early?

Males mature faster when there's no mature rooster. It probably sped up things a bit but didn't specifically cause the fighting

Could they somehow be fighting over food, even though they have a world to forage and I feed them chick feed several times a day?

Probably not a food issue

Does this mean all of Game Mama's male chicks will be young fighters like these? What does this say about the personalities of these three? I thought that since both she and the rooster had such good personalities, their chicks would too.

You can test this yourself by having her reproduce with another rooster. Personally I suspect the father's production bloodline is more likely the one at fault here

How on earth do I proceed from here? I was expecting that I might have to rehome a couple cockerels, but not while they're still sleeping under mama's wing!

Keep the best behaved cockerel, eliminate the rest

How long do I keep the injured ones separated? Should I expect this to happen again? Do I need to make permanently separate living arrangements for them?

Separating them will just drag out the conflict. They'll fight again on every single introduction. If you let them slug it out they might get along one day, but by separating them you ensure future violence when they meet again

If I got a rooster, would he keep the peace?

No, he'll probably try to eliminate all other males

If one of these little fighters went into a new flock of mixed ages, would he be old enough to survive with them?

Depends entirely on the new flock. If it's a free-ranging flock he'd probably be okay

 

[LaurenRitz]

I have never seen that kind of behavior. I have seen play fights at that age, but no damage and the fights were ended by mutual agreement. To nocoop's point, many of the "standard" breeds have behavioral problems that have been reinforced by centuries of human breeding. (I can personally lend my support to the idea of some RIRs being homicidal toward chicks.)

If it were me, I would try to identify who is the aggressor. It's not necessarily the obvious "winner."

My guess is you have one that has been bullying everybody, and self defense kicked in. Based on what you have said, I would let the wounded boy out after they cool off, and see how he and the "winner" interact. Watch closely for any attempt to mount their brothers or otherwise play dominance games. My bet is on Rufus as the aggressor.

In my experience 5-8 weeks has been when negative behaviors first start to show.