Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[Florida Bullfrog]

Update:

I think I last posted about my recently-acquired game cock who tried flying at my knees. I began enforcing my 4' personal space with him, using eye contact, voice, and gesture/movement to communicate that he needed to back off. I spoke firmly or used a sharp voice to warn him. He caught on pretty quickly and we went through a period of testing when he would check to see how close he could get, and I would remind him, and he would concede. Since then, I have not had any trouble at all. He is very respectful--turning aside or moving out of my way without having to be reminded. Even when he is chasing away another rooster, he skids to a stop & walks by me at a respectful pace before racing after the hoodlum again.

He earned his keep early this fall when he successfully engaged & fought off the forest hawk (cooper's hawk?) who had been attacking the flock. He was a bruised and a little bloody, but none of the flock was harmed.

We had a busy spring and summer. Three hens went broody, two of them twice. Total of 24 chicks hatched. At this point, 17 are still alive. I began the summer with 1 rooster and 8 hens; lost 2 hens. Now I have 12 females (7 adults) and 11 males (4 adults). I wonder whether they will continue to raise significantly more males, or whether there is some mechanism which keeps the flock proportions about equal.

I have been--and still am--concerned about the flock dynamics with so many males. So far, so good, though. The three oldest of this year's generation position themselves at strategic points and make excellent sentries when there is an alarm given. The one who was the biggest troublemaker [fighter] in his early days seems to be the smartest. Twice I have seen him round up missing flock members and bring them to the safety of the coop yard when there is danger, and he cleverly chooses to roost with the 4 laying hens in the coop so that he alone has access to them first thing in the morning. (All the rest of the flock prefer to roost in the holly tree.)

My current challenges: 1) what to do with the extra males, 2) how reduce reliance on store-bought feed & broaden their forage territory.

Also, I bought Florida Bullfrog's book--Free Range Survival Chickens--and devoured it. So much good content, no fluff. Having no personal experience with chickens, and knowing no one who free-ranges them, this book made a fantastic foundation of theory and practical advice. I so appreciate all the time and thought that obviously went into it.

Thanks for the kind words about my book!

I don’t recollect how much property you have to utilize. What’s the max range the chickens can use?

This year I’ve fed my free-range flock the least amount I ever have on this farm. I throw them a little feed as a treat about once every 2-3 weeks here in wintertime. They range deeper into my swamp than they normally do. They’re using about 4-5 acres total, but spending most of their time on about an acre or less down in the swamp. I usually only see the main flock right at daylight or dark as they go to and from roost. Down in the swamp they’re utilizing thick cover that is too thick for me to walk through unless Im on a game trail. But the cover is somewhat open below waist level. I’m not sure what they’re finding down there. We’ve had some good freezes but insects never totally die off in north Florida winters. They’ll generally die in good freezes but then on a warm day or evening you’ll hear surviving crickets. I suspect down in the swamp the muck stays warmer than air temperature and they’re still bugs to be had in the leaf litter. I have a food plot between the big swamp and an open pond and that plot is still green where between the swamp and the pond, mist from the water keeps the plot warmer than surrounding air temperature. Like a vapor shield from frost.

 

[LaurenRitz]

I think you'd be wary too, if your boyfriends disappeared every few weeks and another one appeared.

 

[Appalachickens]

I have no patience. Got this magnificent guy yesterday—supposed to be a jungle fowl, EE, naked neck mix. I have no idea where he spent the night but he is staking out his territory in the barn. I gave him four girls—none of whom are impressed.

It’s the neck.

 

[Wild Iris]

As long as you can feed the extra males and they're not creating problems, I'd say leave them. Looks like they're establishing a decent flock dynamic, with the roosters doing what they're supposed to do.

When I give them treats first thing in the morning, I scatter it where I want them to forage. This helps them to understand that there is food in these areas, and they expand out from there.

I probably need to start doing that--just calling them and scattering feed in different places.

ETA: Yes--I don't let down my guard around him! But I'm pleased that he hasn't shown any further inclination to challenge me.

 

[Wild Iris]

That book has been really helpful to me as I plan my forest flock. I’m hoping they can primarily be foragers with minimal food from me. I will put out a 10 gallon waterer like the ones I made for my coop chickens since our creek only runs after it has rained.

I think we have similar goals & vaguely similar land; I'll be interested in how your flock develops.

 

[Wild Iris]

Thanks for the kind words about my book!

I don’t recollect how much property you have to utilize. What’s the max range the chickens can use?

They have access to 400 acres of woodland, but we aren't in the center of it. In one direction, it's about a quarter mile through the woods to the nearest neighbor's dog's territory. Our hilltop is about 20 acres. We have a hillside with pretty good native grasses/seeds/huckleberries, but they haven't explored that far yet.

This year I’ve fed my free-range flock the least amount I ever have on this farm. I throw them a little feed as a treat about once every 2-3 weeks here in wintertime. They range deeper into my swamp than they normally do. They’re using about 4-5 acres total, but spending most of their time on about an acre or less down in the swamp. I usually only see the main flock right at daylight or dark as they go to and from roost. Down in the swamp they’re utilizing thick cover that is too thick for me to walk through unless Im on a game trail. But the cover is somewhat open below waist level. I’m not sure what they’re finding down there. We’ve had some good freezes but insects never totally die off in north Florida winters. They’ll generally die in good freezes but then on a warm day or evening you’ll hear surviving crickets. I suspect down in the swamp the muck stays warmer than air temperature and they’re still bugs to be had in the leaf litter. I have a food plot between the big swamp and an open pond and that plot is still green where between the swamp and the pond, mist from the water keeps the plot warmer than surrounding air temperature. Like a vapor shield from frost.

That's amazing. Do you think this foraging ability is something the flock has learned over several years, or something that has been selected for over generations, or something they could always do but just didn't need to? I really imagined mine would roam farther than they do.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

They have access to 400 acres of woodland, but we aren't in the center of it. In one direction, it's about a quarter mile through the woods to the nearest neighbor's dog's territory. Our hilltop is about 20 acres. We have a hillside with pretty good native grasses/seeds/huckleberries, but they haven't explored that far yet.

That's amazing. Do you think this foraging ability is something the flock has learned over several years, or something that has been selected for over generations, or something they could always do but just didn't need to? I really imagined mine would roam farther than they do.

I think its a bit of all of the above. Some of them likely could have done it (thrived with zero food from me) from day 1. Yet the years of natural selection has enhanced the trait.

The ability to forage for 100% of their food is dependent on other traits. The most dangerous place on the farm is the swamp. I’ve held flocks down there before but I usually gather them up after they’ve been there several weeks, or they leave on their own once the goss hawk starts on them. I consider the goss hawk and the bobcats that slip through there to be top-tier predators. The chickens have to be elite survivors to avoid catastrophic losses in the swamp. This past year I’d say my flock entered the elite tier of predator avoidance. They’ve never ranged so deep and suffered so few losses. In fact my bulldog puppies have been their biggest danger, where the chickens have historically been relaxed around my dogs. The chickens that are left are the ones the bulldogs can’t catch, and that’s saying a lot. One of my bulldogs in particular is as fast and nimble as a cottontail. The best of the best are what’s left.

They’re also much more disease resistant than in years past. The issues my flock have struggled with have been parasite and gut related, even to the extent that their battle with Marek’s usually manifested by the birds quickly starving as their digestive systems shut down once the Marek's kicked into high gear. Now most of that has been eliminated on a genetic level and they seem to get more nutrition from what they find.

My only complaint of the state of my flock is I cannot well control their genetics for superficial traits that I want. On their own they either want to look like my original Crackers (like red junglefowl), including their small body size, or like black American games with pea combs. My attempts to steer their appearances via control of the brood cock has mostly failed. The brood cocks I choose for appearance or conformity are rarely the most vigorous roosters. The one with the best color or the best build to my eye won’t be the best forager or the most alert, or produce the most vigorous chicks. My practice is usually to snatch such a bird that catches my eye off of free-range when its a young stag and baby it in a coop until its mature. Then I kill all his competition in the free-range flock and let that one be the only rooster. And it often doesn’t work. Only rarely has my eye for a good looking rooster corresponded to him naturally being the most fit free-ranger.

The more my hands are off, the stronger the flock becomes. I simply am stuck with whatever natural selection produces. I hope that as time goes on and the flock reaches higher and higher levels of thriving on their own, a rooster will arise that conforms to what I have envisioned in my mind while also growing up in the gauntlet with no protection whatsoever from myself and that one will become the breeder that turns the flock into his image.

For example, this guy is a throwaway from my American game bantam project. He’s 3/4 Cracker, 1/4 Old English game. His extra sickles go against my standards for my Crackers and his body size is more akin to their original size and not the larger size I’ve bred them to last few years. He’s too RJF-like for my AGBs and too game-bantam like for my Crackers. He escaped his coop a year or more ago and has been running around ever since. Not one I’d want to be my breeder. Yet he’s become the dominant rooster on free range. And he’s the one that leads the flock deep into the swamp with no losses. He’s all around a good rooster. Just not what I want. In years past I would have shot him. But now I’m going to let him run for as long as he can until he gets caught or overthrown by a rival. In terms of his ability to keep the flock alive and well, I can’t ask for a better rooster.


Now consider this stag:

He can’t be older than a year. I’m not sure because he was just a random yard mix I paid no mine too. I can only tell that his father was likely Black Eyed Pea, who was this rooster (pic is from when he was a stag like the subject):

Black Eyed Pea was again a throw away that ended up becoming the strongest free-range rooster. Yet I culled him this year along with about a dozen stags. I knew Black Eyed Pea was the most vigorous rooster. He was very tough and resourceful even ad a sub-adult. I just didn’t want a flock of clones of him so I removed him when he was about 18 months.

And here I am with one of his likely sons rising to the top as he did. For now this one runs from the Cracker cross. But when his spurs come in they’ll battle for top spot.

Neither are my choice for keeper. Yet both are the ones that have out-foxed even me to survive and thrive. So I’m letting them be and I’ll let them sort things out when that time comes.

Here’s another one. Some random chick from the summer. Not totally sure where he came from. I just noticed him one day.

He’s looking like a Cracker and is exhibiting the larger body size that I want them to have. Yet he’s got this hybrid straight/pea comb thing happening where his comb looks more or less straight but with no points. If they fill in with points, he’d be a fine bird for my Cracker improvement project. If his comb remains like that, he’d be culled in years past.

Yet he’s thriving on free-range. He’s known nothing else. So this time, I’m letting him go. I’ll neither cull him or offer him special coddling. He’ll either make it or he won’t and I’ll either like how he looks or I won’t. If he makes it to maturity, he will have proven his mettle. Then if he ends up looking like I want, I may consider forcing him over the gene pool by culling the competition. But the best thing for straight vigor is to let whatever rooster is naturally the strongest kill off his rivals and accept the consequences. I just may not get chickens that look like I want.

 

[Appalachickens]

They have access to 400 acres of woodland, but we aren't in the center of it. In one direction, it's about a quarter mile through the woods to the nearest neighbor's dog's territory. Our hilltop is about 20 acres. We have a hillside with pretty good native grasses/seeds/huckleberries, but they haven't explored that far yet.

That's amazing. Do you think this foraging ability is something the flock has learned over several years, or something that has been selected for over generations, or something they could always do but just didn't need to? I really imagined mine would roam farther than they do.

You have 400 acres! That's a good chunk of land!

 

[Appalachickens]

I think its a bit of all of the above. Some of them likely could have done it (thrived with zero food from me) from day 1. Yet the years of natural selection has enhanced the trait.

The ability to forage for 100% of their food is dependent on other traits. The most dangerous place on the farm is the swamp. I’ve held flocks down there before but I usually gather them up after they’ve been there several weeks, or they leave on their own once the goss hawk starts on them. I consider the goss hawk and the bobcats that slip through there to be top-tier predators. The chickens have to be elite survivors to avoid catastrophic losses in the swamp. This past year I’d say my flock entered the elite tier of predator avoidance. They’ve never ranged so deep and suffered so few losses. In fact my bulldog puppies have been their biggest danger, where the chickens have historically been relaxed around my dogs. The chickens that are left are the ones the bulldogs can’t catch, and that’s saying a lot. One of my bulldogs in particular is as fast and nimble as a cottontail. The best of the best are what’s left.

They’re also much more disease resistant than in years past. The issues my flock have struggled with have been parasite and gut related, even to the extent that their battle with Marek’s usually manifested by the birds quickly starving as their digestive systems shut down once the Marek's kicked into high gear. Now most of that has been eliminated on a genetic level and they seem to get more nutrition from what they find.

My only complaint of the state of my flock is I cannot well control their genetics for superficial traits that I want. On their own they either want to look like my original Crackers (like red junglefowl), including their small body size, or like black American games with pea combs. My attempts to steer their appearances via control of the brood cock has mostly failed. The brood cocks I choose for appearance or conformity are rarely the most vigorous roosters. The one with the best color or the best build to my eye won’t be the best forager or the most alert, or produce the most vigorous chicks. My practice is usually to snatch such a bird that catches my eye off of free-range when its a young stag and baby it in a coop until its mature. Then I kill all his competition in the free-range flock and let that one be the only rooster. And it often doesn’t work. Only rarely has my eye for a good looking rooster corresponded to him naturally being the most fit free-ranger.

The more my hands are off, the stronger the flock becomes. I simply am stuck with whatever natural selection produces. I hope that as time goes on and the flock reaches higher and higher levels of thriving on their own, a rooster will arise that conforms to what I have envisioned in my mind while also growing up in the gauntlet with no protection whatsoever from myself and that one will become the breeder that turns the flock into his image.

View attachment 4266497

For example, this guy is a throwaway from my American game bantam project. He’s 3/4 Cracker, 1/4 Old English game. His extra sickles go against my standards for my Crackers and his body size is more akin to their original size and not the larger size I’ve bred them to last few years. He’s too RJF-like for my AGBs and too game-bantam like for my Crackers. He escaped his coop a year or more ago and has been running around ever since. Not one I’d want to be my breeder. Yet he’s become the dominant rooster on free range. And he’s the one that leads the flock deep into the swamp with no losses. He’s all around a good rooster. Just not what I want. In years past I would have shot him. But now I’m going to let him run for as long as he can until he gets caught or overthrown by a rival. In terms of his ability to keep the flock alive and well, I can’t ask for a better rooster.


Now consider this stag:

View attachment 4266496

He can’t be older than a year. I’m not sure because he was just a random yard mix I paid no mine too. I can only tell that his father was likely Black Eyed Pea, who was this rooster (pic is from when he was a stag like the subject):
View attachment 4266499

Black Eyed Pea was again a throw away that ended up becoming the strongest free-range rooster. Yet I culled him this year along with about a dozen stags. I knew Black Eyed Pea was the most vigorous rooster. He was very tough and resourceful even ad a sub-adult. I just didn’t want a flock of clones of him so I removed him when he was about 18 months.

And here I am with one of his likely sons rising to the top as he did. For now this one runs from the Cracker cross. But when his spurs come in they’ll battle for top spot.

Neither are my choice for keeper. Yet both are the ones that have out-foxed even me to survive and thrive. So I’m letting them be and I’ll let them sort things out when that time comes.

Here’s another one. Some random chick from the summer. Not totally sure where he came from. I just noticed him one day. View attachment 4266506View attachment 4266507

He’s looking like a Cracker and is exhibiting the larger body size that I want them to have. Yet he’s got this hybrid straight/pea comb thing happening where his comb looks more or less straight but with no points. If they fill in with points, he’d be a fine bird for my Cracker improvement project. If his comb remains like that, he’d be culled in years past.

Yet he’s thriving on free-range. He’s known nothing else. So this time, I’m letting him go. I’ll neither cull him or offer him special coddling. He’ll either make it or he won’t and I’ll either like how he looks or I won’t. If he makes it to maturity, he will have proven his mettle. Then if he ends up looking like I want, I may consider forcing him over the gene pool by culling the competition. But the best thing for straight vigor is to let whatever rooster is naturally the strongest kill off his rivals and accept the consequences. I just may not get chickens that look like I want.

Since I don't have the time or patience for selective breeding, I'm going to do exactly what you've mostly ended up doing - letting the chickens sort it out amongst themselves and the survivors win. I don't actually care much what they look like as long as they can escape our many predators. I'm just looking for wily, wary, flighty birds.

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

I need some help brainstorming. I really want to have two roosters (and preferably two flocks but I will settle for a backup rooster) since I lost my rooster and my flock hasn’t started hatching chicks yet…I have plenty of room for two flocks (theoretically—this is the question) and 14 hens. I can get more hens if need be but my question is how big is a rooster’s territory? Any firsthand experience appreciated. Will they inevitably fight or with enough space/resources and hens will they stake out their own territories and leave each other alone?