Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[kattabelly]

I don't really have predators to worry about, so while I do have coops they're never closed up (other than one-offs like a few weeks recently, when I was closing the door of one coop overnight to prevent two newly weaned month-old chicks ending up outside in the dark if they fell or were pecked off a roost). Most chickens here prefer to roost in a coop at least most of the time. We don't have a lot of trees and the ones that are just about surviving don't really provide much protection from the weather. Some do choose to sleep outside when the weather is nice.

 

[Skyeknight]

Sometime in the future I would like to get a semi-feral group going and see how well they do here. However because they are domesticated animals that I own I am required by law to protect them from predators and coop them up when avian influenza happens. Then there is the feeding, which would attract rodents and allow exponential population growth if its unlimited. A deer feeder is not available here as hunting isn't popular. So how do I manage a semi-feral group being as hands off as possible without it being borderline negligence?

 

[Perris]

I am required by law to protect them from predators

are you sure about that?

My browser's AI says "
Dutch law does not require pet owners to protect their animals from predators, but it does impose strict obligations on owners to ensure the welfare and safety of their own pets. The Netherlands' Animals Act 2011 mandates that owners provide proper care, housing, and protection from pain, injury, and distress—ensuring their pets are not exposed to undue risk, including from predators. However, owners are not legally obligated to shield their pets from natural predators such as foxes or birds of prey....
In practice, while owners must ensure their pets are safe from avoidable dangers (e.g., traffic, poisoning), they are not required to defend them from natural predation. The focus of Dutch animal law is on preventing human-caused harm and promoting animal welfare, not on protecting pets from ecological risks. "

Of course it ends with the warning to 'verify the facts' but fails to provide adequate links to make that do-able in the time I'm prepared to spend on it.

 

[BDutch]

The focus of Dutch animal law is on preventing human-caused harm and promoting animal welfare, not on protecting pets from ecological risks. "

This is true.
But this is also true.

… I am required by law … to coop them up when avian influenza happens.

I am not obeying the Dutch law whenever I let my chickens free range from October/November, immediately after the first HPAI in poultry farming. This usually lasts until Mai (3 weeks after the last infection/ clearing).

 

[Perris]

So how do I manage a semi-feral group being as hands off as possible without it being borderline negligence?

maybe look into the local laws on game birds? Here, for example, pheasants are raised for shooting and, with regard to H5N1, while penned come under the same rules as apply for poultry. But once they are released, they come under the rules for wild birds.

 

[BDutch]

The table in the link shows the horror of HPAI/bird flu in chicken/poultry farming in an abstract way.

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/vogelgriep/besmettingen-vogelgriep-bij-bedrijven

to open the table click on :
Tabel met aantallen geruimde vogels sinds 2024

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

However because they are domesticated animals

Is there a distinction between livestock and pets? I don’t consider a chicken domesticated in the same way a dog is but it is possible here in the states to have a livestock guardian dog that lives outdoors with a flock or herd of some kind. That dog is not neglected but some people who aren’t used to the concept have happened upon them and disagreed to the point of stealing the dog. I imagine there is a similar distinction to be made between chickens that are incapable of caring for themselves without a coop, electric fence, etc and chickens that are more adapted to foraging. Leaving other livestock animals in a stall or coop without range time would be considered neglect. Does the law make these kinds of distinctions? If not I wouldn’t be inclined to worry about it.

 

[Skyeknight]

ensuring their pets are not exposed to undue risk, including from predators. However, owners are not legally obligated to shield their pets from natural predators

In practice, while owners must ensure their pets are safe from avoidable dangers (e.g., traffic, poisoning), they are not required to defend them from natural predation.

It says in "Besluit houders van dieren" 3 separate times to protect animals if needed against health risks, bad weather and predators. So it's a pretty dark grey area. It can be argued that it would be needed if introduced into an environment with potentially Martens and foxes (a forested area).

maybe look into the local laws on game birds? Here, for example, pheasants are raised for shooting and, with regard to H5N1, while penned come under the same rules as apply for poultry. But once they are released, they come under the rules for wild birds.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into this! Don't think it apply in this case as only 5 animal species are allowed to be hunted. Pheasant is one of these, but it probably will specifically mention pheasant by name. Also I am pretty sure it's illegal to let pheasants loose into the Wild, hunting is almost always used for fauna management. Will still look into what it will say.

Is there a distinction between livestock and pets?

There are general rules applied to all animal, which divides into farms animals and pets. Then there are specific rules for specific type of farm animal like dairy cattle, beef cattle, sheep and goats, 5 different types of pigs farms, broilers and layers.

Dogs are always counted as pets in this case. Horses are the only farm animals that has some of the rights pets have.


There is besides protection still the thing with feed. I would prefer that let a specific group like that manage to find their own food, but that would be negligence. Florida bullfrog has a beautiful system with the deer feeder, but sadly I can't find a realistic place to buy those. So are there any other good options to provide feed with minimal pest attraction and make sure they get enough to stay healthy but not unlimited feed?

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

So are there any other good options to provide feed with minimal pest attraction and make sure they get enough to stay healthy but not unlimited feed?

I feed mine twice a day regardless of weather. In the summer i feed them less and later in the morning—so it’s more like lunch and dinner. I feed a little more at dinner than lunch and if there is leftovers i feed less the next day. So they dont always have food available.

 

[BDutch]

Is there a distinction between livestock and pets?

Not in the way you make a distinction.

It says in "Besluit houders van dieren" 3 separate times to protect animals if needed against health risks, bad weather and predators. So it's a pretty dark grey area. It can be argued that it would be needed if introduced into an environment with potentially Martens and foxes (a forested area).


Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into this! Don't think it apply in this case as only 5 animal species are allowed to be hunted. Pheasant is one of these, but it probably will specifically mention pheasant by name. Also I am pretty sure it's illegal to let pheasants loose into the Wild, hunting is almost always used for fauna management. Will still look into what it will say.

There are general rules applied to all animal, which divides into farms animals and pets. Then there are specific rules for specific type of farm animal like dairy cattle, beef cattle, sheep and goats, 5 different types of pigs farms, broilers and layers.

Dogs are always counted as pets in this case. Horses are the only farm animals that has some of the rights pets have.

The animal friendly law that was introduced about 2 years was meant for all kept Animals. Of course the factory farming industry made it clear this was not possible for factory farming/livestock like cows, pigs, sheep, goats no, chickens and other commercial poultry farms.
So they kept commercial farming out of this new law.

The effect was that some things really changed bc of it. E.g. People with a group of deer fenced in, in a small meadow, had to stop their hobby.

I suppose chickens in a backyard are not included in factory faming for rules and regulations. So the owners have to oblige the new law, and their chickens have to be kept in a way they can behave in a sort of natural chicken-way. FWIW? Probably meaning it’s not allowed to keep them in a small cage without a run.

Municipality ordinances often say something about keeping roosters within city/village boundaries bc of the noise they make. If a rooster annoys people the roister has to go elsewhere/culled.

There is besides protection still the thing with feed. I would prefer that let a specific group like that manage to find their own food, but that would be negligence. Florida bullfrog has a beautiful system with the deer feeder, but sadly I can't find a realistic place to buy those. So are there any other good options to provide feed with minimal pest attraction and make sure they get enough to stay healthy but not unlimited feed?

I know of people with free rangers who only scatter mixed grains some time before sunset. About as much as they immediately eat.