Langshan Thread!!!

[BGMatt]

Matt and I differ on the timetable for laying.

I want my females to lay no earlier than 8 months. My reason? If a pullet is good enough for me to keep as a breeder, I'm going to use her as such. I won't keep a bird that long if I know it's not going to be worth anything. So, by allowing the birds to wait until 8 months before laying eggs, the reproductive tract has a longer time to develop and also allows for a wider pubic bone spread. This means the eggs won't remain as small for nearly as long as a bird that lays at 6 months. So while others are waiting on their eggs to get some size, I can start setting eggs within a week or 2 of a pullet laying. I also won't be "wasting" eggs that could be used for hatching the next generation because they are too small to hatch from.

The purpose of chickens however is food, not just producing the next generation. If they reach proper size in a shorter amount of time the comments about the reproductive tract and pubic bone spread are no longer applicable. Nor is the "pullet" eggs, although I don't understand the concept of wasting eggs. If you have an aversion to setting allegedly smaller pullet eggs, they make great eating, which is after all the point of chickens to begin with. Egg size has no correlation between final bird size either, there may be some differences in the first week of life but after that they are indistinguishable and genetics take over.

As for the males, I want the males to get to their maximum size. To me, having a male reaching sexual maturity fast means that they are simply busy breeding instead of building themselves. I prefer a male that starts breeding anywhere from 9 months or more. Course, they don't start looking ready for show until well after their 2nd year. That's more along the lines of feathering though and not the actual frame and mass.

I agree on the feathering. As noted previously, faster growth and maximum size are not mutally exclusive. Also keep in mind it's not the bigger the better, there is a standard weight. Attaining a good butchering weight in a reasonable time frame should be important, because again, chickens are food. Slow growth is also an indicator of decreased vigor and weaker genes, why pay to feed an expensive animal without some sort of scientifically provable incentive?

Could someone breed for faster developing and maintain size? Absolutely! But let's just take a look at the production aspect of this. Leghorns (production) are a small breed and are meant to lay eggs earlier in life than other breeds. They can start laying eggs as early as 4.5 months in some strains. BUT, the size of the bird is small and they do not produce for a long amount of time.

Your first sentance here is the key. It CAN be done. Why should it not be? As far as the production Leghorns are concerned, you're right, they are very small, and do not produce for a long time because of that. That's because they are also bred for feed conversion ratio, it takes more feed, and thus more cost to fuel a bigger bird. That's where the true tradeoff is.

Meat birds grow fast as well, usually in about 6 weeks. They are useless as breeders due to their bodies simply not being able to keep up their rate of growth for long.

Agree

I'm just saying that body size and production are inversely correlated. In order to get the size without ruining the integrity of the frame, you need to allow a bit of time for the body to shape up. Pushing it to fast, especially expecting a bird of that size to begin laying eggs at 6 months will (without good and intensive breeding practices) will result in a smaller bird.

No they aren't. Although your last words here prove my point, good breeding practices are key. Basically you have three factors: Size, Production, Feed (technically Calorie) Requirements, pick two. You can have a big bird that grows fast, and large and is productive, but it's going to consume a lot of feed. Or you can have a small bird that is productive but doesn't consume much feed. Or you can have a big bird that doesn't have the huge calorie requirements, but it's not going to have good production qualities because it will grow slower.

It can be done, but be sure to not sacrifice the size for the early production.

Sacrificing size would be sacrificing breed type. If you read the early documents on the Langshan, late production is also sacrificing breed characteristics, There are historical documents proving that the breed used to meet the quicker production time table, and filled it well. To be good stewards of the breed we need to strive for both.

 

[Dirt Farmer]

Unrelated, but noticed RoPo has an egg sale in Buy-Sell-Trade. Check out the blue pullet/hen in the fifth picture. Stunning.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Matt, I promise I have a retort...just formulating what I need to say in my head before I put it down.

Dirt Farmer, thanks for the plug! If nobody takes them, I always have people wanting eating eggs. Would like to give others a chance at them before it comes to that. Also, thank you for the compliment on the bird! The photo was taken by a friend...I cannot photograph birds for the life of me...I'm not even going to attempt to blame my poor photographic abilities on the camera...

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Matt, in regards to "wasting" eggs. I see no use in having eggs that are undersized being laid when I could wait another month and have completely viable eggs as well as eating eggs that are full-sized. Nobody wants undersized eating eggs either. Also, waiting allows the reproductive tract to fully develop and regulate itself. So, instead of having excess of albumen or excess of fat in the yolk, you've got a bird that isn't compensating for early production of eggs by skimping out on needed nutrients for a completely healthy chick to develop from.

Slow growth can also be an indicator of the health of the lines. By having birds that grow very fast but don't reproduce well (many lines of Leghorns and Minorcas) you not only lose out on production of eggs but also skimp on the overall health of the birds. Then there's the whole meat bird fantasy where you want birds to grow as fast as possible but also live a long life. I'm ecstatic that my bantam Cornish make it to 4 months and I can eat them at that point. If I tried to butcher a Cornish X at 4 months, it'd be well past it's prime and have already lost it's ability to walk. HOWEVER, it's grown fast and had vigor up until it's peak. Then it declined. What do we consider "optimum health" or "optimum vigor"?

In regards to it possible being able to be accomplished? I see no reason to waste time and feed possibly selecting for faster growing birds that might never reach the same size as a bird that is allowed an extra month to grow. I'll be interested to see how or if you are able to succeed, however I also see no issue in having a bird grow for an extra month of feed. Langshans were originally bred as the layers of the Langshan class. Not only because they lay sooner than other Asiatic breeds (which they do, even if not bred for production) but because they lay for longer periods of time as well as more eggs within that period of time. The large body size is just an amazing side effect. As the breed has gotten larger, the egg production qualities have declined. That's why it is so important to stay within the breed standard weights. Course...try telling that to the judges.

 

[debbiegt]

Just hatched 12 Croad Langshans today. So excited!

 

[PetRock]

Just hatched 12 Croad Langshans today. So excited!

How cute!!! Welcome to the thread and congrats!!! Where are you in CA? I'm in the SF Bay area. I see that you are looking for more eggs. I just took my Langshans out of the breeding pens for the season so I don't currently have eggs. I will have some cull birds maybe this fall. My one LF black trio came from Sherry Parker who is here in N/Central CA. I'm not sure if she sells eggs or not.

 

[debbiegt]

Petrock, I am near Placerville. Not a very far drive from you. If you are culling them...would I want them? Or should I just wait till next season for some of your hatching eggs?

 

[crowcreek]

New to this thread. I have two Langshans I got from my local feed store. I have had good luck with whatever I have bought from them. I went to pick up some EE's and Blue laced wyendotte's but the bLW didn't hatch and they had these. I had never heard of them (not very experienced chicken person here) so I decided to get two to try. I really love them. They are seven and a half weeks old and I believe them to be pullets. They are very sweet and get on great with the EE's

Here they are as five day olds

Here they are now. I have a hard time photographing them as the EE's tend to hog the camera.

I can't wait until they get big. The pictures I see of them as grown hens are beautiful. I am so glad I took the opportunity to get some!

 

[PetRock]

Petrock, I am near Placerville. Not a very far drive from you. If you are culling them...would I want them? Or should I just wait till next season for some of your hatching eggs?

My best friend lives east of Placerville. I'm sure that we will be up that way some time this fall! Are you planning on breeding them? I have 2 big, beautiful black cocks and 2 hens out of James Smith's line. He is in AZ and has been breeding Langshans for over 40 years. He brought birds to the Stockton show in 2013 and they won most of the top prizes in their categories. I have hatched quite a few chicks out of my youngest trio because I've had them the longest. I should have some decent birds that I will not be keeping once I get to the point of deciding. I can only keep so many cockerels. They will have to be as nice or nicer than the 2 older cocks in order for me to keep them. I want to give them plenty of time to mature before I decide. I am mostly concentrating this year on adding some pullets to my program and hopefully some decent blues or splashes from Mikaela's line.

 

[debbiegt]

My best friend lives east of Placerville.  I'm sure that we will be up that way some time this fall!  Are you planning on breeding them?  I have 2 big, beautiful black cocks and 2 hens out of James Smith's line.  He is in AZ and has been breeding Langshans for over 40 years.  He brought birds to the Stockton show in 2013 and they won most of the top prizes in their categories.  I have hatched quite a few chicks out of my youngest trio because I've had them the longest.  I should have some decent birds that I will not be keeping once I get to the point of deciding.  I can only keep so many cockerels.  They will have to be as nice or nicer than the 2 older cocks in order for me to keep them.  I want to give them plenty of time to mature before I decide.  I am mostly concentrating this year on adding some pullets to my program and hopefully some decent blues or splashes from Mikaela's line.

Yes I want to o breed them. Keep me in mind, I would love to get a good rooster!