Let's talk Cuckoo and WHITE marans... breeding strategies...

[wolftracks]

I was having great hatches last year, but I think my brain was just fried to much until this year to get a good hatch. I had some horrible hatches. I also had a couple of 80% and 100% hatches, but most were just awful.

Chookschick gave me a link to her cheat sheet and that helped, but I don't know what's going on with fully formed chicks not hatching with the rest of the eggs. The first ones I ever hatched were shipped eggs and I was told to keep humidity in the 70's. I got a 50% There were 3 that formed and didn't hatch.

I had a shipment from a Davis flock that I tried to hatch out recently, but got zero. All the other breeds hatched. I followed the cheat sheet. Still I'm getting BCMs stuck.

 

[VillageChicken]

Quote:
I would say it is possible, maybe even some Birchen. Does she have copper in her now?

Have you ever looked at Bill Bradens cuckoo http://www.hpbaa.com/Bill_Braden_Cuckoo_Maran.html

I had a cucu/BCM blue cross last year that turned out to be a Columbian colored except that his black hackle feathers had some cucu barring on the tips. Sort of like the one on the top right of that page but with colored hackels as well.

I actually traded him off for $150 worth of adults eggs &chicks. To think I had taken him to the butcher!!

I'm guessing the cuckoo carries Db - it doesn't show on extended black based birds, but it has a columbian like affect on ER birchen based birds. Db is present in Wade birds and causes the brown headed chicks. It doesn't usually have a nice affect on any variety of Marans unless you're breeding Blacktailed Buffs... not sure why no one is breeding those. Pure Columbian Marans are wheaten based not EE/ER so I'm not sure why he'd be worth $150!?? I guess it's like they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

The reason why some folks consider sports "garbage" is because even though they resemble outwardly a certain known variety, often the parents pass on unwanted genes that should not be present in that particular "sport" variety. For example, wheaten sports will likely carry unwanted Mahogany if they come from BC parents. Same with Birchen sports from BC stock. Whites can often carry barring, BCs the Db gene, etc. Or the sports will be missing important genes, like whites from cuckoo are often missing the Id gene that gives pink rather than grey/blue shanks. Most folks would rather use proven stock with no "mystery" genotype, rather than introduce unwanted genes into their flock.

 

[Raven1]

OHBigmomma where did you get the super dark White Marans eggs? You can PM if you would rather Thanks.

 

[OHmamma]

Quote:
I would say it is possible, maybe even some Birchen. Does she have copper in her now?

Have you ever looked at Bill Bradens cuckoo http://www.hpbaa.com/Bill_Braden_Cuckoo_Maran.html

I had a cucu/BCM blue cross last year that turned out to be a Columbian colored except that his black hackle feathers had some cucu barring on the tips. Sort of like the one on the top right of that page but with colored hackels as well.

I actually traded him off for $150 worth of adults eggs &chicks. To think I had taken him to the butcher!!

I'm guessing the cuckoo carries Db - it doesn't show on extended black based birds, but it has a columbian like affect on ER birchen based birds. Db is present in Wade birds and causes the brown headed chicks. It doesn't usually have a nice affect on any variety of Marans unless you're breeding Blacktailed Buffs... not sure why no one is breeding those. Pure Columbian Marans are wheaten based not EE/ER so I'm not sure why he'd be worth $150!?? I guess it's like they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

The reason why some folks consider sports "garbage" is because even though they resemble outwardly a certain known variety, often the parents pass on unwanted genes that should not be present in that particular "sport" variety. For example, wheaten sports will likely carry unwanted Mahogany if they come from BC parents. Same with Birchen sports from BC stock. Whites can often carry barring, BCs the Db gene, etc. Or the sports will be missing important genes, like whites from cuckoo are often missing the Id gene that gives pink rather than grey/blue shanks. Most folks would rather use proven stock with no "mystery" genotype, rather than introduce unwanted genes into their flock.

Yep that's what I was thinking. Like I said I had taken him to get butchered but the guy that does it for me liked him and kept him around. The lady just awnted him and she offered the trade. She was going ot give me 24 chicks but I just took an adult pair some eggs and 6 chicks. I offered to give him to her. She just was so excited about his color that she had to give me something. BElieve me it didn't even put a dent in her flock, not even a ripple. She only has cuckoo marans, probably hundreds of them.

I like the color of the sport and other than the one I have with my Silver Cucu right now, I plan on keeping them together as their own variety because I wouldn't want to mess my others up. I have seen the black tail buff I have one WJ roo on that has so much red in him that he could be considered one. There is a guy in PA that deals mostly in Presley lines and has them. I have too many colors right now or I might consider them too.

I can understand why certain breeders wouldn't want "mystery" genes in their flock but I am not one of those. I like different color varieties. I do keep track of who came from where and I am keeping two pure lines, one Davis one WJ. I also keep my whites pure, but I may have to mix one roo in from my new chicks because my roo was killed.

Raven1 I pm'd you.

 

[flgardengirl]

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When you did the "dry" incubation, did you up the humidity for lockdown? That is one thing I have noticed that some people call it a "dry hatch" which is incorrect. Dry incubation is a lower humidity for the first 18 days then higher humidity for the hatch. When I have read people talking about "dry hatch" makes me think that the humidity is never raised which can cause all kinds of trouble.

I have dry hatched completely through the incubation and hatching. It was kinda an oops the first time but it had the same results as when I used humidity so I tried it again and it works out really well here. We have about 40-45 % humidity in the winter in the house unless its raining but it is higher in the summer so maybe thats why it works okay here.

 

[OHmamma]

I do think it all depends on regional humidity as well. Perhaps even barometric pressure. For example consider when a hen starts to get broody herself. A hen will not hatch in the dry cold of winter or the heat of summer but only when the outside temperature is condusive to a more successful hatch. I get the best fertility and hatchrate at the same time my Old Cucu hen gets broody. Whichc is also the rainy seaason here in Ohio, It has been that way for the three years I have had her. It might just be luck but I would not be surprised if there is a correlation between the two.

That is why I can run my Incubator "dry" but in reality it stays between 30-35% on its own. Other areas may not be able to get that high naturally. Maybe I should stick a hygrometer under a broody and see what she reads. I wonder if she would peck me.......

 

[flgardengirl]

That might make sense Big Momma bout the humidity. Its plenty humid here and my hens have all been going broody since early spring!


I have a question maybe Village Chicken or someone knowlegable about genetics can answer:
If I was to breed a BCM hen into my golden cuckoos to improve egg color and shank feathering, would it matter if the BCM hen had a little mossiness in her breast? None of my BCM hens are mossy except one has a small amout of mossiness on her breast feathering but no where else. She lays a dark egg and has nicely feathered shanks. I was wondering if I could just use her in with the golden cuckoos or do you think I should go with one without the chest mossiness...would it matter? Thanks.

 

[ChooksChick]

Quote:
I don't think the mossiness would matter a bit, since that coloring will be broken up by the barring. That's a good question for someone like Henk69- he's got a better grasp of the genetic magic than most.

He may also be able to answer how the golden girl popped out of Myabcs3's Cuckoo flock.

I would like to know his take on the Silver vs. Gold Cuckoo condition of our Marans here, because the Silvers in many European flocks appear very different from ours, as though they are simultaneously Birchen. If that's what they're supposed to be, we're missing that aspect.

 

[OHmamma]

Quote:
I don't think the mossiness would matter a bit, since that coloring will be broken up by the barring. That's a good question for someone like Henk69- he's got a better grasp of the genetic magic than most.

He may also be able to answer how the golden girl popped out of Myabcs3's Cuckoo flock.

I would like to know his take on the Silver vs. Gold Cuckoo condition of our Marans here, because the Silvers in many European flocks appear very different from ours, as though they are simultaneously Birchen. If that's what they're supposed to be, we're missing that aspect.

I wonder about the goldens as well I had this one pop out last year he is golden but not like other I have seen. I think they look birchen too. Or was this guy just a cucu with staw colors?

 

[VillageChicken]

Quote:
I don't think the mossiness would matter a bit, since that coloring will be broken up by the barring. That's a good question for someone like Henk69- he's got a better grasp of the genetic magic than most.

He may also be able to answer how the golden girl popped out of Myabcs3's Cuckoo flock.

I would like to know his take on the Silver vs. Gold Cuckoo condition of our Marans here, because the Silvers in many European flocks appear very different from ours, as though they are simultaneously Birchen. If that's what they're supposed to be, we're missing that aspect.

By mossiness do you mean some copper flecking? I have asked the question many times about what SHOULD cuckoo and golden cuckoo be genetically, and I never get an answer. I believe they were originally Extended Black based - just like Barred Rocks. Cuckoo hasn't been messed up too much, but Golden Cuckoo should be simply the same Extended Black based bird with the sex-linked gold gene rather than the silver. Instead we see every variation under the sun, including barred wheatens, barred BCM, barred Birchen with Mahogany bleeding through in the wings (leftover from a BCM cross). When you add these to the mix, you cannot possibly get a flock that breeds true. Add to this the fact that many people don't know the difference between single factor and double factor barring, it's difficult to have anyone breed to a common standard.

You see BCM in the Golden Cuckoo mix because folks want to darken the eggs. This is understandable, as long as the BCM are pure then it's not a bad cross. But folks are also crossing in wheaten roos, which gives them the desired affect on offspring, but creates chaos in the next generation.

I think straw hackles are more yellow than OHbigmamas cuckoo. He looks single factor barred, and very undermelanized.

I have also noticed that some cuckoos look birchen based. But if they were, they would not just have the lighter hackle, they would have the pure white hackle that correct silver birchens should have. I think the bird on the far right of Bill Braden's page that was linked earlier is a barred Birchen, not a correct silver cuckoo. Until the standard is written, we won't know which genetic base will get us closer to the SOP.

For now I agree that some mossiness on a good BCM hen won't cause any major problems. She may throw some roosters with a lot of gold/copper in the chest, but I don't know if that's a problem since we don't know what Goldens are really supposed to look like.