Life after Marek's ???

[orrpeople]

I just reread your earlier post - sorry for re asking about vaccination! @Lady of McCamley

 

[Lady of McCamley]

So far, and I still have my Isbars (Silverudd's Blues). Most of mine are not vaccinated, so we shall see how they do. They're laying, and I hatched one with a different batch. I'm wondering if I should collect a bunch of eggs from my birds to hatch..
@Lady of McCamley - do you vaccinate your new chicks or just hope for the best?

I have not vaccinated any chicks hatched on my property. I hatch in small batches (about 3 to 5 chicks at a time) since I use small bantams. The price of the vaccines would run me $60 a batch that would give me 1,000 doses for about 4 chicks. Just not worth it for a leaky vaccine.

So, no, I do not vaccinate my chicks. I hope I am breeding for resistance on my property.

Forgive me if I repeat as I haven't looked back on my prior posts, acting from advice from my Vet Tech daughter who is now also an organic farmer, I attempt to keep a diverse flock.

Over the years, in the start up of my flock (to get the right breeds for the egg colors I want) I have:

kept different breeds from different lines.

purchased some from a feed store that were vaccinated. (Most of those have aged on by now though).

purchased young pullets (bantam Cochins about 3 months of age) from a turkey farm where the turkeys ran amuck (er free ranged...if you've ever had turkeys, you know what I mean). Those are my brooding hens....pretty certain they would have acquired Turkey Marek's from that farm.

bred from healthy stock to hatch chicks on my property.

I do not sell live birds or chicks. I only sell fertile eggs. If I rehome a healthy bird, it goes to a friend who has a large farm and knows the risks. She gets all her birds free.

Over the years, I am fairly certain I've had 2 cases of Marek's in one coop (Questionable symptoms in the brooder coop two different seasons.)

This last time was in May. Classic symptoms in a Silkie who was not vaccinated this year...she died pretty quickly after coming to my property...after about 4 months being here...fairly certain she contacted it on my property...but she could have brought it with her.

I've held my breath since May, as she co-brooded my Cream Legbars (of ALL things)...she had cleared quarantine of 3 months, I set eggs, she came down and died within a week of setting eggs...purchased eggs....expensive eggs. Sigh.

I only got 2 out of the 6 eggs hatching (not a reliable breeder, I don't think there was good fertility).

I culled the roo as he was really snotty and I was in quarantine so wasn't going to sell him.

The single hen is pretty, fat, sassy, but not laying yet. She likely will lay in spring as she developed right at fall time for point of lay.

And some mutt roosters that hatched at that time who are fine too. (I can only seem to hatch roosters this year....about 6 roos to one pullet all told).

Nobody else on the property is showing any signs.

So I'm pretty sure I've got it lurking....and it appears I am breeding for resistance. We'll see in a few years.

LofMc

 

[orrpeople]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/i-wish-i-knew-do-you-know.1203575/

I think you might be really interested in this conversation going on today - especially in the things Ralphie says.

 

[orrpeople]

A quick-ish question:
If Greenfire lost their CL first imports to Marek's, how do they not have it at their hatchery?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

A quick-ish question:
If Greenfire lost their CL first imports to Marek's, how do they not have it at their hatchery?

One would assume they put the birds in quarantine, and they died there.

But, I agree with the general sentiment of the other thread. Marek's is already in every chicken flock. You only recognize it by the ones that die. Not every bird dies. Most don't. Most you don't even know they carry the virus.

So Greenfire has already had it on their farm. The CL's were not strong enough to withstand introduction to it.

LofMc

 

[clanross]

Adding birds is a risk but not unwarranted, in my opinion. It is simply the normal risks you take with birds as Marek's is considered to be very common in the general environment. A mixed flock is the best protection from a flock wide Marek's disaster.

So choose from breeds that are naturally resistant and add birds that have been vaccinated to lower your chances of a flock wide losses. That's the best anyone can hope for. You may lose some from time to time, but you will have many healthy flock members too.

Selling or re-homing birds from your flock is more problematic. If you truly have active Marek's, obviously you don't want to pass that along to others and would need to keep a closed flock. However, there are those buyers who would be interested in birds (survivors) who have proven to be naturally resistant or whose vaccination immunity is showing strong. Full disclosure would be important so the buyer can judge if it is worth risking their current birds to gain (and breed from) ones that may be Marek resistant.

I think this way because of the facts surrounding Marek's.

All flock owners should consider their birds have been exposed to Marek's as it is so prevalent in the general environment.

Marek's is a virus that causes tumors to grow in birds that do not have natural resistance, in other words, those that do not keep the virus in check.

Marek's comes in many different strains (like the cold virus). Which means the vaccination does not address all strains. Also, the vaccination is "leaky." It prevents, or slows, the tumor growth, but does not prevent actual infection of Marek's.

Currently there are two lines of thought. Generally those birds vaccinated for Marek's have the best chances of not succumbing to tumors. However, there is growing concern that the vaccine, being leaky, is causing (through natural selection) a super virus to brew.

Many in the industry now recommend breeding Marek's resistant birds rather than relying on the leaky vaccine. That means breeding from those birds who have been exposed to Marek's but show no symptoms (over a long term).

So that means buying and selling non-vaccinated birds that appear healthy but have no guarantee against Marek's as there is none. Obviously that means accepting some risk as well.

You could compare it to the virus that causes cold sores in humans. It is ever present in the environment but not everyone develops cold sores. I've never had one. My husband however, is very prone. He has learned to take certain vitamins and watch his lifestyle so that he doesn't lower his immune system.

Likewise with your birds. As the Marek's virus is considered to be ever present in the environment, every bird could potentially harbor the virus, but not every bird will develop the tumors unless some stressor lowers their immune system.

So my line of thinking is purchase a variety of Marek's resistant breeds. Purchase some vaccinated birds. Then I do my very best to take good care of my birds to keep their stress low (clean litter, food/water, regular worming/parasite management, plenty of room).

I even make a point to purchase some chickens (my brooding Cochin bantams) from a turkey breeder since turkey's carry the turkey strain (which the original chicken vaccines were made from).

So hopefully I've diversified my flock well enough that my losses will be only a few over the years. If I sell or re-home, I make sure the buyer/receiver knows they've been exposed over the years to Marek's, but that they appear to be resistant to the strains in my area. However, they should keep the birds in isolation before introducing, and they need to understand adding any new birds to an existing flock brings risk.

The other option is to keep a closed flock. Birds coming in but no birds going out. Older birds are either culled (killed) or kept until they die of natural causes.

My thoughts.
Lofmc

I have legbars and Bielefelders and am just beginning to breed for resistance. As of yet, I have not hatched any of my own eggs, but plan to later this year. I am very interested in your legbars that may have resistance. How is that going now? Thank you!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I have legbars and Bielefelders and am just beginning to breed for resistance. As of yet, I have not hatched any of my own eggs, but plan to later this year. I am very interested in your legbars that may have resistance. How is that going now? Thank you!

Thank you for asking.

I had 2 Legbars that clearly had Coccidiosis struggles that made them unthrifty. One got taken by a raccoon, the other died early adulthood.

I started another line and ended up with a male and female. The male was very aggressive so met with freezer camp. The female, though a bit flighty as is the breed's temperament, was pleasant.

At the time I was using Buff Silkies as brooding hens. They hatched and raised the CLs. Sadly one of them went down with very classic Marek's symptoms (stumbling, drooping wing, paralysis in one foot). She died after about a month....and she was the mother to my CLs!!!!! I thought I was doomed....BUT that female CL has never shown any symptoms of Marek's. So I bred from her.

My direction went differently to Olive Eggers, so I bred her to the Barnevelder rooster that also endured that Marek's outbreak without symptoms. I have never had another bird, now after 3? generations, show any symptoms.

So I can't say I directed my efforts to Legbars, sadly (got too distracted), but I am taking the CL line breed backs to start refining that line with that mother (I just haven't had a roo I've wanted to breed yet).

But I can say NONE of my CL hybrids have shown any signs of Mareks.

Just where I am now.
LofMc

 

[orrpeople]

After talking to quite a few folks, it is interesting how, after an outbreak, it almost "disappears". (That word is in quotes because it doesn't...but it definitely goes dormant quite well.)

 

[kylembullock]

With a positive diagnosis of Mareks can I build a coop at say my dads and hatch all eggs over there to have chicks that won't have the virus? Then vaccinate from there? Also, I have several types of pheasant are they at risk as well?

 

[orrpeople]

With a positive diagnosis of Mareks can I build a coop at say my dads and hatch all eggs over there to have chicks that won't have the virus? Then vaccinate from there? Also, I have several types of pheasant are they at risk as well?

Marek's is tricky because it's so transmissible - dander is everywhere and there's no guarantee you won't bring it with you, or it won't come along on the next wild bird that flies in the yard, no matter how biosecure you are being.

That said, if it were me, and I wanted to give hatching/breeding a try somewhere else, I might do it. Particularly if you vaccinate your own and initially keep them quarantined at your dad's house.

In my own experience, I vaccinated all the chicks I hatched for the first year after diagnosis, and just quarantined them at home their first couple weeks. The next couple years I didn't vaccinate, then this year I did about half and half. I rarely (like 1 a year...less than to predators) lose any birds. I know it could flare up, but I just don't see it anymore. Such a weird disease.
I think chicken Marek's is not transmissible to game birds, but I'm not an expert. We keep quail and they can't catch it...