- Jan 20, 2011
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Actually none of the pics on feathersite of lilacs are what Sand Hill lists. The genotype they list is b+b+RrSlsl, this genotype wouldn't even express the slate color. sl is recessive slate, this gene is more than likely not even in the US any longer, and it takes two doses of that to express the slate coloration. and Sl is normal non-slate so Slsl would not express slate. The genotype they list would look like a red bronze.
Also you are correct that the original slates looked like what we call red slates and lilacs today, as back then all slates were on a bronze base, later on they realized that a black base gave better colored slates lacking the rusty tones that tend to show thru on a bronze based slate.
Here is a quote by Franklin Albertsen which was posted on the RHT list back in 2002 on his opinion of what most lilacs are,
As you will read he thinks most are bronze based with homozygous slate.
Most of the controversy revolves around whether or not red is
actually present. Some of us feel that red can not be
present in a pure homozygous state (rr) becuse then if
we dilute the dark pigment, the only pigment to dilute
is the black edges on feathers on the tom -- in other
words a bourbon red tom with slate lacing on his
feathers. A lot of buffs carry slate - - the poults
look like like some grey spray paint drifted over
their heads and back when hatched. As adults you can't
tell them from other buffs except possibly lighter eye
color. I think most lilacs are bronze (b+b+) base
birds with homozygous dilution. Since dilution (slate)
is more effective on black, we get mostly bluish birds
with the reddish tones mostly unaffected --therefore
enhanced. These could breed true. Since R+r birds tend
to show more reddish brown tones, a single dose or
heterozygous "R+r" birds would definitely have more
red, but would not breed true. Not enough of the
strains floating around the country have been
genetically documented to know what to expect. Many
just look at the color and think they know what it is.
It's kinda by guess and by golly. Buyer beware. FDA
Also back in 2000, Paula Johnson revised the 1998 census on what a true lilac was as well, she stated in the 2000 SPPA census report that a Lilac should breed true. bronze based with double doses of slate, just like my birds.
Tom Richardson has/had a group of true breeding lilacs for many year, one of the pics on feathersite are of his birds, these are the b+b+DD type.
All of these different variations that have the lilac look cannot all be called lilac when each has a slightly different geneotype.
The birds you show are also not the same genotype that Sandhill lists, Your birds don't carry a red gene either like he lists, at least in the birds you show. Yours are also single slate birds as they show black specks, genotype of b+b+Dd. true breeding lilacs will not have black specks being double slated.
There was and still is a lot of controversy on what a lilacs should be.
That's my 2 cents on the subject.
Kevin
Porter's Rare Heritage Turkeys
Actually none of the pics on feathersite of lilacs are what Sand Hill lists. The genotype they list is b+b+RrSlsl, this genotype wouldn't even express the slate color. sl is recessive slate, this gene is more than likely not even in the US any longer, and it takes two doses of that to express the slate coloration. and Sl is normal non-slate so Slsl would not express slate. The genotype they list would look like a red bronze.
Also you are correct that the original slates looked like what we call red slates and lilacs today, as back then all slates were on a bronze base, later on they realized that a black base gave better colored slates lacking the rusty tones that tend to show thru on a bronze based slate.
Here is a quote by Franklin Albertsen which was posted on the RHT list back in 2002 on his opinion of what most lilacs are,
As you will read he thinks most are bronze based with homozygous slate.
Most of the controversy revolves around whether or not red is
actually present. Some of us feel that red can not be
present in a pure homozygous state (rr) becuse then if
we dilute the dark pigment, the only pigment to dilute
is the black edges on feathers on the tom -- in other
words a bourbon red tom with slate lacing on his
feathers. A lot of buffs carry slate - - the poults
look like like some grey spray paint drifted over
their heads and back when hatched. As adults you can't
tell them from other buffs except possibly lighter eye
color. I think most lilacs are bronze (b+b+) base
birds with homozygous dilution. Since dilution (slate)
is more effective on black, we get mostly bluish birds
with the reddish tones mostly unaffected --therefore
enhanced. These could breed true. Since R+r birds tend
to show more reddish brown tones, a single dose or
heterozygous "R+r" birds would definitely have more
red, but would not breed true. Not enough of the
strains floating around the country have been
genetically documented to know what to expect. Many
just look at the color and think they know what it is.
It's kinda by guess and by golly. Buyer beware. FDA
Also back in 2000, Paula Johnson revised the 1998 census on what a true lilac was as well, she stated in the 2000 SPPA census report that a Lilac should breed true. bronze based with double doses of slate, just like my birds.
Tom Richardson has/had a group of true breeding lilacs for many year, one of the pics on feathersite are of his birds, these are the b+b+DD type.
All of these different variations that have the lilac look cannot all be called lilac when each has a slightly different geneotype.
The birds you show are also not the same genotype that Sandhill lists, Your birds don't carry a red gene either like he lists, at least in the birds you show. Yours are also single slate birds as they show black specks, genotype of b+b+Dd. true breeding lilacs will not have black specks being double slated.
There was and still is a lot of controversy on what a lilacs should be.
That's my 2 cents on the subject.
Kevin
Porter's Rare Heritage Turkeys
