Linebreeding an extremely rare breed flock

[The Moonshiner]

Here the 'natural' way it happens, i.e. no interference, is father to daughters and mother to sons.

What do you mean by that?
""Natural"" and "no interference"
You saying if left alone free ranging that siblings won't mate?

 

[courtsmarans]

I've always been told (in many breeding projects) that breeding brothers to mother is okay, in fact, I've been told that how you better the already "good" qualities. What nicalandia said is another way to do line breeding

 

[getaclue]

When trying to breed the best, you don't let birds breed indiscriminately. You have to keep track of who is with who, and which pairings will upgrade the line, or correct issues. One of the things mentioned about the breed is they are to have long backs. In that case, if you have some that are otherwise excellent, but their backline is a bit short, you pair them with ones that have the longest backs. The result should be that eventually the backs are consistently longer. Again, work with the best representations of the breed, and select 3 breeding trios 1 male + 2 females. Again, look for best qualities, and pair accordingly.

 

[getaclue]

There are multiple reasons to check on the standard, and try to produce offspring as close to it as possible, especially in a project like this. This breed was standardized in 1924, but goes back to the days of the Vikings. There are several reasons it was worth the time, and effort spent standardizing the breed, and for breeders to maintain the breed until today. The main ones that stick out to me are, color, size, temperament, and taste.

Everyone's chickens are the best looking, but what are they comparing them to? With the breed I chose, they are to have a certain shape, and size. If I allow undersized chickens to breed, or ones that the breast is not as full as it should be, then it's not just about appearance. It's about how much meat, especially breast meat, that I'm getting per bird, too. They are to maintain a certain shape, as well as size. By allowing those that do not meet up to the standard to breed, it can well affect egg production, and the size of the eggs produced. Too many changes from the standard, can affect the taste too. The very things that make the breed so desirable, when not bred to standard, can disappear. Temperament is another issue. A breed that is suppose to be tame, gentle, easy to handle, when a mean one crops up, and is allowed to breed, can ruin the temperament of the offspring for generations.

 

[Shadrach]

What do you mean by that?
""Natural"" and "no interference"
You saying if left alone free ranging that siblings won't mate?

No, not quite that. It’s about mating opportunities and genetic investment.
The ‘natural arrangement would be a senior rooster, his hens (not more than 3 usually) and possibly offspring.
The senior rooster will attempt to stop his male offspring from mating with any of the hens. Most will drive the junior males out of the group, or even kill them when they become competition.
Most junior cockerels will attempt to mate with their mother first in my experience and from the observations of others who study chicken behaviour.
In the event that the senior rooster dies, what was the satellite rooster and progeny of the original pair becomes the new senior rooster and will pair with it’s mother.
The senior hen will try to prevent junior hens from mating with either her original partner or her son should he become the senior rooster.
The probability is if more than male sibling hatches, one male will drive any others either out of the flock or force them into the position of being the new satellite rooster.

So it’s about mating opportunity in a ‘natural’ setting.
There are observed but unproven complications.

Both sexes attempt to pick the best genes when mating. The best genes are those that become the senior rooster or hen.
While forced mating can and does take place there is this to consider, which according to better behavioural studies happens more than was originally believed. I see it here.
https://www.livescience.com/15828-chickens-eject-sperm.html

Here and from others who I’m in contact with who also study chicken behaviour in general brother and sisters do not mate with anything like the frequency of father and daughters and mother and sons.
Here the next males in line tend to mate with the hens the next generation down, possibly half sisters more often.

Of course, human keeping arrangements and breeding interference changes all this. Most species have breeding and genetics for survival rather well sorted out. It’s human interference by so called breeders that messes it all up.

 

[nicalandia]

Of course, human keeping arrangements and breeding interference changes all this. Most species have breeding and genetics for survival rather well sorted out. It’s human interference by so called breeders that messes it all up.

We have been doing that for the better part of the last 30,000 years(Dogs), seems to work in our favor, otherwise we would still have chickens that lay 30 eggs per year and not enough meat to bother killing them for it.

 

[BreanneRN]

Well, just my 2 cents, you have to have some priorities and knowledge of the breed, how it is supposed to look, how it is supposed to taste (in the case of a specialty meat bird especially). Since it is a French breed, I imagine they might be most picky about that... Assuming you have a basic knowledge of what would be a fault in most chickens, wonky combs, wrong color legs, conformation not right, you are still going to have to have some knowlege of what a really fine specimen of the breed ought to be. Otherwise, you accomplish nothing by linebreeding, inbreeding, spiral breeding or any of the rest of it. Seems to me you need some contact with someone that is very familiar with the origins, common problems (recessives that crop up), and utility and taste of this breed in order to accomplish anything, not to mention temperament. At least with poultry, yesterdays rare breed sometimes becomes tomorrow's most popular, but seldom is the quality improved by those who jump on the bandwagon and mass produce it, though certainly not saying that that is your goal. Wishing you all the best with your project, it really does sound exciting, wish you could post a few pics, as it sounds fascinating!

 

[lenadriver]

Would be nice to see the Diagram.

To simplify it somewhat.

P= Parent Line(P1a, P1b for two lines, line breeding)
F1= Filial line of the cross of P1axP1b
BC1(AKA BC1F1 Filial line of the back cross to Parent line)
BC1F2(AKA BC1F2, the result of BC1F1xBC1F1), most people will stop at BC1F2. But you can go further BC2, BC2F2 and so forth

You might need to add to my diagram! I understood your first description better. I've got a little lost.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Good visual representation of an ideal. Obviously quality of birds and pairings that don't niche well change this ideal. Otherwise it's a clear visual of what you are attempting to achieve. Diversity.

You can see that this can continue for decades. Group 15 for example has very little common dna to group 13. There is no need to introduce new stock unless there is a characteristic you are lacking and want to obtain. Effects of "inbreeding"- lack of fertility, hatchability and overall vitality, won't be seen if diversity of genetics is maintained. That's line breeding.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

This all goes back to the need of known pairings/matings and banding or toe punching the birds to know who is who. Quality of record keeping is the bottom line to longevity of line breeding.