Linebreeding an extremely rare breed flock

[The Moonshiner]

Any of you'll have actual experience with spiral breeding?

 

[lenadriver]

While there is no standard here, or in the UK, double check that there isn't one in France. It would be in French, of course, but that is the standard you'd be aiming for. I agree with Egghead on spiral breeding, if there is no standard, even in France. Yes that's going to mean lots of leg bands, and a journal, with each one, and their offspring accounted for.

Please make sure the leg bands never get too tight, especially with growing chicks. Check them often. It's awful what those things can do when not removed, and larger ones put on when needed.

Toe punching (cringe) is the most reliable, as rings do come off sometimes and then, at best, you're only making an educated guess who it is when you have a handful of young stock together or larger breeding flocks later.

 

[lenadriver]

Not even close, you should see how the world of plant breeding works.

They have, P(Parent Line), F1(offsprings of the cross of parent line), F2(cross of the crosses), BC1F1(back cross to parent line), BC1F2(offsprings of the back cross to parent line). BC2F1(second back cross to parent line), BC2F2(offsprings of the second back cross to parent line)

Any chance you could do a diagram to go along with this?

 

[Shadrach]

I hope someone can help. I have imported hatching eggs last year and this year from France of a breed of chicken called Gournay. This breed is a dual purpose chicken but renowned for its meat particularly. I’m very keen to develop this breed and to spool out stock to a small select few of rare chicken breeders throughout the UK. I have received a great deal of interest but must get the line breeding correct. So here’s my quandary: I have an unrelated pair of adults (the only survivors from last year’s hatch). I have hatched 2 cockerels and 2 pullets from these two this year. I imported more eggs this year and have two unrelated groups (8 in each group). Who should I be mating with who next spring and how should I continue with this in years to come? I understand it is fine to mate brothers and sisters but it’s as clear as mud how to make the very best of the breed. Please help me in simple terms if that’s possible. Many thanks

I don't wish to appear rude, but isn't this something one should research before you get any eggs (?)
Here the 'natural' way it happens, i.e. no interference, is father to daughters and mother to sons.
I wouldn't worry overmuch about standards with a rare breed. Standards are based on appearance generally which have absolutely nothing to do with producing healthy chickens.

 

[lenadriver]

Not even close, you should see how the world of plant breeding works.

They have, P(Parent Line), F1(offsprings of the cross of parent line), F2(cross of the crosses), BC1F1(back cross to parent line), BC1F2(offsprings of the back cross to parent line). BC2F1(second back cross to parent line), BC2F2(offsprings of the second back cross to parent line)

I've seen people explain how they have done this with chickens but got a little twisted up trying to work out kinship coefficients. I've managed to draw a diagram of everything you've said so far here. What happens next? Talking chickens, not plants!

 

[Amer]

Ok, so inbreeding is in essence multiplying genes. Outcrossing is dividing.
I find nothing wrong with any breeding practice in chickens.
Inbreeding can be good and bad, just like outcrossing.
Inbreeding multiplies good and bad genes. If you are say... breeding for basic health of the bird.
If you breed an extremely healthy sister with an incredibly healthy brother, the offspring will likely have the genetics that will make them healthy, even more so than their parents.
However, if you breed a sister of average health with an unhealthy brother, you are multiplying the genes she likely carries, creating weak offspring. Line breeding works this way with any gene, and is quite simple.
If your cock was a healthy bird, while the mother was not, you would likely breed that average female up.
Or you could go for outcrossing. You will not know what happens when you breed an average pullet from that cross to a healthy new cock. However, you are more than likely to produce healthy offspring. In this case it makes sense to outcross.
If you were breeding healthy birds together, it would make no sense to invest in a new bird, (especially in a rare breed) risking the chance of also introducing disease.

 

[Shadrach]

Ok, so inbreeding is in essence multiplying genes. Outcrossing is dividing.
I find nothing wrong with any breeding practice in chickens.
Inbreeding can be good and bad. In truth, it may have more plusses than outcrossing.
Inbreeding multiplies good and bad genes. If you are say... breeding for basic health of the bird.
If you breed an extremely healthy sister with an incredibly healthy brother, the offspring will likely have the genetics that will make them healthy, even more so than their parents.
However, if you breed a sister of average health with an unhealthy brother, you are multiplying the genes she likely carries, creating weak offspring. Line breeding works this way with any gene, and is quite simple.
If your cock was a healthy bird, while the mother was not, you would likely breed that average female up.
Or you could go for outcrossing. You will not know what happens when you breed an average pullet from that cross to a healthy new cock. However, you are more than likely to produce healthy offspring. In this case it makes sense to outcross.
If you were breeding healthy birds together, it would make no sense to invest in a new bird, (especially in a rare breed) risking the chance of also introducing disease.

As I understand it the OP had eggs sent. I'm going to assume he/she has no idea of the health, or the longevity of the line.
If one was going to do the job properly one would make sure one saw the parents and the person selling the eggs or chicks had a history of that line. Pretty much anything less is cowboy stuff.

 

[nicalandia]

I've managed to draw a diagram of everything you've said so far here. What happens next? Talking chickens, not plants!

Would be nice to see the Diagram.

To simplify it somewhat.

P= Parent Line(P1a, P1b for two lines, line breeding)
F1= Filial line of the cross of P1axP1b
BC1(AKA BC1F1 Filial line of the back cross to Parent line)
BC1F2(AKA BC1F2, the result of BC1F1xBC1F1), most people will stop at BC1F2. But you can go further BC2, BC2F2 and so forth

 

[getaclue]

Moonshiner, me to some degree. I started with a breeding trio, one hen was from the original line, the other was an outcross from that line, and another.

 

[getaclue]

Exactly, nic.