Livestock guardian dogs?

[jasmer]

Hey guys, I've inquired about LGDs here in the past but it was a while ago. We're currently working on fencing off a 1-1.5 acre plot we've recently cleared, as well as a 3 acre plot that is not cleared but we intend to graze anyway. Currently we have a handful of chickens and 6 ducks. Soon we'll be getting two boer goats (a buck and a doe), and we'll be putting our 4 meat rabbits out in tractors on grass. So I had questions about LGDs again.

We live on a 5 acre parcel, and would eventually like to add a pig and a couple lambs for freezer camp to the mix as well, and maybe more chickens. Our current dog, pointer/heeler mix, kills chickens, as does our neighbor's newfoundland dog. Said newfoundland recently broke into (literally, he tore down the freaking wall) chicken coop and killed 9 of our 10 chickens. I caught him in there again the other day and beat some sense into him and sent him packing, he won't even look at them now, but I don't trust him. Maybe it's stupid of us, but we don't shoot him or tell the neighbors to keep him home because our dogs play together all day, our dog is 4 years old and "settling down" and still doesn't seem to have an off switch so the neighbor's dog is actually a godsend in this department lol. We're working with them on a "best of both worlds" solution but I'm rambling.

First, it's my understanding we need a sturdy 5' fence or higher to contain an LGD. I'm wondering if with a 5-6 foot fence if an LGD might just be overkill. We live in rural northern Idaho. We had a juvenile cougar last year take a duck and several chickens, we caught it red handed once, I believe the neighbor shot it though. We hear the coyotes howling nearby every night but they don't bother us, our little 45 lb dog has run off more than his fair share of coyotes and feral cats. We also have wolves, and while we haven't seen any in our area, nearby friends have seen some brazen wolves wandering closer and closer to town. They're not exactly something you only see way up in the mountains anymore. We also have bears.

Without actual predator loss by any of these animals (save some birds to a cougar which I think is now quite dead) do roving dogs justify a livestock guardian dog? It's a bit of an investment, and as far as I understand they might not really start doing their job until they're like 2-3 years old. I'm pretty sure a 5' fence will keep our dog and the neighbor's dog out, but at the same time, I don't want our experience with chickens repeated on far more expensive animals like goats, pigs, or sheep. What do you guys think? And for a small homestead which breeds do you suggest? Is it overkill, and would a 5' fence with a hotwire along the top (and maybe bottom?) solve the problem? Or should we start looking for a livestock dog and if so, can anyone suggest a breed that might work for us?

 

[SavageDestiny]

If your neighbor's Newfie can/will tear down the wall of a chicken coop, a 5' fence will absolutely not keep him out.

 

[jasmer]

Yeah I guess. Can you suggest a livestock breed that can work in a moderately populated area? We're all on a bunch of 5-10 acre parcels, neighborhood kids tend to wander through (trespass) on their way to other places, I don't exactly want a dog that will attack them.

 

[txredchick]

My Aussie Shep, can be relied upon to babysit a toddler, she is a FT LGD.

She is on the larger size, but nothing gets on our ranch without her knowing & handling. Unfortunately, that includes people she doesn't know - we have signs all around our property & security gates that we have guard dogs ---- so fair warning is out there.

She is a fan favorite in my area ( breed ) & our home, she is so loving - yet knows when she's outside she has a job.

Good luck.

 

[centrarchid]

You are in a big predator location with a very small flock and small acreage. Typical fence will stop yours neighbors dogs, especially if enhanced with a strand of hotwire. I would invest more in the fencing and expect dog to handle only smaller predators (coyotes on down). If you get into situation were wolves or cougar targets a single LGD, you will loose your dog. More than one dog would be required to improve odds and even one will cost more than flock it is to protect.

 

[Rhandi74]

I have 2 LGD Great Pyrenees and have had completly different experiences with both. I would suggest with any breed of LGD to make sure they are being used for LGD work and not pets. Also the older the dog the more training it has received with its parents. I purchased both mine as puppies but one was 4 months and raised strictly out with goats and minimal human contact and the other was 6 weeks and not kept in the same area as the goats but could see them. I do not have as many predators as you but I was not willing to lose my goats kids to a predator and felt an LGD would be a good thing to have. There is several farms near me with and without LGD and all seem to be successful in keeping predators away. I think it depends on what you want to do. I currently have a 4 foot chain link fence and no hot wire. Once I fence in my pastures, I will have hot wire, more to keep my goats in then to keep predators out. I recently have gotten chickens and ducks and they have been wonderful protecting them also.

 

[jasmer]

Centrarchid, you're probably right in that it might be overkill. I just remember my grandpa telling me about how he used to lose newborn calves to coyotes and I can easily see losing kids and lambs, or even grown goats and sheep. These animals will essentially be our grocery store, so losing any of them is not an option. I want to see all my options, but what with the newfie literally breaking into the chicken coop, maybe I'm a little paranoid about fence failure

The cost of any single animal doesn't even compare to the cost of a single LGD, so that's definitely something to think about. The cost of our entire livestock population would definitely meet or exceed the cost of the dog, but then losing an entire population is unrealistic.

Our 45 lb dog does a great job keeping animals at bay. But the chicken coop and goat pen are literally right by the house right now. It will be moved into fenced pasture where our current dog will never be allowed to set foot without direct supervision. He won't be able to harass livestock, but conversely, he won't be able to harass the predators either when the thing they came for is out of the dog's sight. Basically the situation is, I NEED a dog out there, but I don't trust a non-LGD to live with the livestock. So it's a tricky situation, a LGD is an expensive dog, and two would far, far outweigh the value of our entire flock. But...I still NEED a dog out there that I can trust around lambs, kids, and birds.

Rhandi, that's kind of how we feel. I know a proper LGD is quite an investment, but so are decently bred boer goats and sheep. I doubt the cost of our goats and sheep will exceed the cost of a LGD but add in chickens, a pig or two, ducks, turkeys, more rabbits, and the supplemental hay and feed we might be buying it's looking like a fair trade. But then we're planning on a 4-5' pasture fence with hotwire so I can't decide if a LGD is really a good investment or not.

 

[jasmer]

Also, just want to clarify I'm thinking in future terms, not present. Presently we have a tiny flock and one goat. Soon another goat. In the future, beginning this year or next, we're adding sheep, cornish x or freedom rangers for the freezer, a pig, ducks, turkeys, probably some more rabbits, as pasture improves and allows. A LGD would be a future investment, and not likely within the next 2 years.

 

[centrarchid]

Also, just want to clarify I'm thinking in future terms, not present.  Presently we have a tiny flock and one goat.  Soon another goat.  In the future, beginning this year or next, we're adding sheep, cornish x or freedom rangers for the freezer, a pig, ducks, turkeys, probably some more rabbits, as pasture improves and allows.  A LGD would be a future investment, and not likely within the next 2 years.

You having to take small bites like I have done. We moved to current location 5 years ago and incrementally increasing our stock and protective measures. We went for two years literally with birds sleeping outside bedroom window, I literally had to go out and chase varmints of myself with baseball bat, flashlight and occasionally shoes. Chicken pens were setup to form a ring and a small group of free-range birds actually slept under light on front porch. Descendents of those now have a cozy location in garage. After two years I got first dog as pup and he started making enough difference with foxes and oppossums that I could move pens away from house. Then I started putting up hotwire perimeters and electrified poultry netting. Once first dog was 18 months I got a second and now just two years later I have two dogs.

Soon we will be getting some sheep and goats. Dogs will be broke by acquiring mature bucks first. For me chickens are first concern. The ruminants are pasture management tools and educational opportunities for kids. We might sale a few under "organic" advertisment which should be possible since we will be well below carrying capacity of ground. Now hay should be needed when considering the herd size versus available pasture.

 

[jasmer]

Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. We're taking our time. Next year or the following year we'll work in major pasture improvement, still deciding if I'm just going to overseed a pasture blend or tear it all up and start from scratch.

The goats we're getting are about a year old, or close to it. By the time we do have a LGD we'll probably have kids from those goats, though. Our current chicken coop is a tool shed we've put an 8' fence around. Eventually we want to move it further away from the house and actually use the shed.

For us, all the animals are a concern because they're groceries first and foremost, including the goats. Goat meat is quite tasty. I don't know what our capacity is as far as pastured animals goes in my area yet, and the only "improvement" one of the pastures has is that we took the lawn mower in there and cleared knapweed and shrubs.

I'll think about the LGD, maybe getting two, we were perfectly willing to throw down $2000 for a family pet, and figure a working dog is probably a better investment. Our pointer/heeler mix has a good herding instinct and can do so under supervision, but we still need something to stay out there with the animals.