Lost two month old quail being brooded in the house

[Lobzi]

The only thing I can think of that I did different that day was have a fire in a woodburning stove. Does anyone know of any harm fumes from a fire might cause that would kill them. When I found the one dead I took the other outside and after about 10 mins of holding it and watching as it laid in my lap struggling to breath it had an apparent seizure and died. Currently I have no more birds in the house and have no plans to have a fire while brooding inside.

 

[DK newbie]

I don't exactly know about a stove. And not really about quail either. But apparently it is relatively common that parrot owners suddenly loose their parrots due to fumes - and carbon monoxide, which I suspect is the most likely, dangerous fume to come from your stove, is one of the possible culprits. And it is very dangerous to people too, birds are just more sensitive to it - and to fumes in general - so if carbon monoxide poisoning is at all possible, I wouldn't put a fire in that stove again without having a carbon monoxide detector ready or at least having thoroughly cleaned the chimney.
Another parrot killer is self cleaning ovens - I'm not aware what exact fume is the cause, but I've read several stories about birds dying because the owner turned on the self cleaning function - even if the birds were in another room.
Non-stick cookware is apparently a problem as well, as it can release fumes if over heated, and those also kill parrots quickly.

Your story sounds a lot like the parrot-stories I've read, you don't mention any prior problems with the birds and finding one of them alive and have it die in your lap a few minutes later is really the typical parrot-killed-by-fume story.. Only alternative theory I have is boinking, but I don't assume that's a possibility. And having two boink to death at the same time doesn't sound very likely either.

 

[Lobzi]

Thank you for addressing my question.
I have heard from a friend with a parakeet that she cannot cook in teflon pans, I just never though a bird a large as a quail and at the other end of the house from the fireplace could be effected by fumes from the fireplace. I do know for sure I will not have brooders in the house when I have a fire in my stove again.
Doesnt CO poisoning cause headaches if not death? I have never had any problems, headaches, nausea or the such. when having a fire.

Im not saying I dont believe your theory of CO poisoning but I want to try to get to the bottom of the problem. Also, a friend told me if it was CO poisoning the second quail should have responded positively when I told it outside in the fresh air. This leads me to believe it is something other than CO poisoning.

 

[DK newbie]

I'm definitely no expert on CO poisoning, all I know is that people can die from it without even noticing a problem - they just become sleepy and then they loose consciousness.
With regards to the bird not improving, as far as I know, CO binds itself to the blood cells in a stronger bond than Oxygen does, so it takes a long time to get it out of the system. Say the bird got a lethal dose of CO into its body, and then a little more - it won't die right away, it still has a little Oxygen in the blood. But because the CO binds so strongly, even if the bird is taken to a place without CO, the amount of CO in its blood might not get below the lethal level before the cells give up, even if the situation is actually improving. I'm partly guessing here, but I don't find it unlikely that the bird could die from CO poisoning several minutes after being removed from an environment with CO.

 

[Lobzi]

That all sounds scientifically correct. I would have to test the CO levels and I plan to. I also plan never to brood in the house with a fire going. I just had to prevent one of my very friendly hens from coming into the house. I have a fire going and I dont want to take any chances with even an adult bird.

 

[Lobzi]

I got this from Wicipedia:

Carbon monoxide has a higher diffusion coefficient compared to oxygen and the only enzyme in the human body that produces carbon monoxide is heme oxygenase which is located in all cells and breaks down heme. Under normal conditions carbon monoxide levels in the plasma are approximately 0 mmHg because it has a higher diffusion coefficient and the body easily gets rid of any CO made.[60] When CO is not ventilated it binds to hemoglobin, which is the principal oxygen-carrying compound in blood; this produces a compound known as carboxyhemoglobin. The traditional belief is that carbon monoxide toxicity arises from the formation of carboxyhemoglobin, which decreases the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood and inhibits the transport, delivery, and utilization of oxygen by the body. The affinity between hemoglobin and carbon monoxide is approximately 230 times stronger than the affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen so hemoglobin binds to carbon monoxide in preference to oxygen.[30][61][62]
Hemoglobin is a tetramer with four oxygen binding sites. The binding of carbon monoxide at one of these sites increases the oxygen affinity of the remaining three sites, which causes the hemoglobin molecule to retain oxygen that would otherwise be delivered to the tissue.[59] This situation is described as carbon monoxide shifting the oxygen dissociation curve to the left.[30]Because of the increased affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen during carbon monoxide poisoning, little oxygen will actually be released in the tissues. This causes hypoxic tissue injury.[18] Hemoglobin acquires a bright red color when converted into carboxyhemoglobin, so poisoned cadavers and even commercial meats treated with carbon monoxide acquire an unnatural reddish hue.

 

[DK newbie]

Sounds interesting - you didn't, by any chance, cut up one of the dead quail? Would be nice to know whether they had an 'unnatural reddish hue' or not..

 

[Lobzi]

No I did not. I was heartbroken as you might imagine. I feel horrible knowing I caused their death because I wanted to have a fire.

 

[DK newbie]

Accidents happen. And in theory their death could have been caused by something else.. But yes, it's always sad when you lose an animal, and if it could have been prevented it's even worse. But you didn't know there was a problem, it's not like you starved them to death or anything obviously wrong. I actually live in a house with a wood burning stove as well, and where as I never light a fire in it myself, my roommate sometimes does. Neither budgies or buttons living in the room next to it have shown any symptoms of being affected by it. Fumes are just so **** sneaky!

 

[Lobzi]

I ordered two CO monitors from Amazon today. I will have fires, monitor the CO and not allow babies in the house with a fire from now on. You are correct in that it might be something else that killed them. I was just so surprised that the one still living did not make it. I didnt say but I had seven that did. I also lost four month old bantams chicks. It was truly heartbreaking.