Lowering protein in feed.

[416bigbore]

More research on AW.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09712119.2017.1301257

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Geese_Stocking_Density_and_Genetic_Selection

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4852259/

 

[Isaac 0]

To answer your question (regardless of the why) I add oatmeal in to cut the protein down.

As an aside, my ducks love it when oats are added !

Cheap oats from the supermarket you would use for porridge - if the grain size is large I either grind it down (my OH coffee bean grinder comes in super handy) or I make sure they have grit.

Either way, they go loony for it.

Also a useful back pocket tip for if your food ordering goes pips up.

I go roughly one third oats to the crumb - and never throw the food away, thats stuffs spendy !

I did this a few months ago, worked well. I used quaker oats from costco.

Question.

So the goal of adding oats is to lower the protein correct? But, at the same time, you are 'diluting" the nutrients in the feed?

I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around, that numerous people here feed their duck's Gamebird feed that's around 26/28% protein, and never have any case's of Angel Wing., and there have been numerous cases of angel wing with people that fed their ducks a low 16% diet.

 

[HalfWayUpAMountain]

Question.

So the goal of adding oats is to lower the protein correct? But, at the same time, you are 'diluting" the nutrients in the feed?

I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around, that numerous people here feed their duck's Gamebird feed that's around 26/28% protein, and never have any case's of Angel Wing., and there have been numerous cases of angel wing with people that fed their ducks a low 16% diet.

Am always up for a sharing of views !

My challenge is I suppose what did ducks do before we got here with our optimised nutritional nibbles ?

Is your perspective that you are trying to encourage the best diet possible Isaac ? And if so, how would that be measured ?

Marketing in our diets as well as our animals has got a lot to answer for imo - my feeling with all my animals and birds is that there is a wider range of diet that is perfectly fine.

Again, i'm all for noodling out how we measure that.

For whats its worth, I think the founding members of my flock are in great health - but I am no vet or duck expert !

They are happy, sociable, not over or under weight, naughty and still great layers at nearly five years old when they arent on strike.

With all our animals we adjust their diet according to how they present to us and what they need.

As an example, we've just adopted a Cane Corso who at 18 months weighs 42kg and I can see his ribs.

We feed the rest of our dogs raw - he really isn't sure and although he eats some, he doesnt eat enough to maintain his weight let alone continue growing. So we are currently working out what he will eat - and it turns out its not the stuff thats good for him.

So do we feed him what he will eat because he needs the calories and get as much good stuff down him as possible. Or just feed him the good stuff and watch his weight drop further because, well, its good for him ?

And finally ! For me, cost comes into it sometimes - a bag of 20kg feed can range between 15 and 40 euros depending on where I can get it at any given time. Sometimes I cannot get it at all. Cutting it with something cheaper and easier to get that they like is not something I will ever feel bad about. We supplement consistently with niacin.

Hope that helps - happy to take questions!

 

[Isaac 0]

Am always up for a sharing of views !

My challenge is I suppose what did ducks do before we got here with our optimised nutritional nibbles ?

Is your perspective that you are trying to encourage the best diet possible Isaac ? And if so, how would that be measured ?

Marketing in our diets as well as our animals has got a lot to answer for imo - my feeling with all my animals and birds is that there is a wider range of diet that is perfectly fine.

Again, i'm all for noodling out how we measure that.

For whats its worth, I think the founding members of my flock are in great health - but I am no vet or duck expert !

They are happy, sociable, not over or under weight, naughty and still great layers at nearly five years old when they arent on strike.

With all our animals we adjust their diet according to how they present to us and what they need.

As an example, we've just adopted a Cane Corso who at 18 months weighs 42kg and I can see his ribs.

We feed the rest of our dogs raw - he really isn't sure and although he eats some, he doesnt eat enough to maintain his weight let alone continue growing. So we are currently working out what he will eat - and it turns out its not the stuff thats good for him.

So do we feed him what he will eat because he needs the calories and get as much good stuff down him as possible. Or just feed him the good stuff and watch his weight drop further because, well, its good for him ?

And finally ! For me, cost comes into it sometimes - a bag of 20kg feed can range between 15 and 40 euros depending on where I can get it at any given time. Sometimes I cannot get it at all. Cutting it with something cheaper and easier to get that they like is not something I will ever feel bad about. We supplement consistently with niacin.

Hope that helps - happy to take questions!

Yes, I understand your point of view however what I like to take into consideration is that are ducks wild generation, for the most part, ate a high protein diet that consisted of frogs, fish, insects, vegetation, etc, and do we see wild mallards with Angel Wing that have not been around humans, not really.

In my opinion, the significant difference is one, these birds are much lighter then the breeds we have now, tend to grow slower overall because they weren't bred to, they also spend a great deal of time using energy to find food. I'm not a always go off the book, no matter what person, especially with topics like this that aren't completely understood, and that change throughout the year, I rather use my experience, many others, common sense, and if possible studies, to make a concise decision on what we might be talking about.

IMO, instead of worrying about cutting the protein so much, we should be more worrying about the environmental factors involved with the sudden onset of AW in ducks, to be specific lack of exercise.

 

[HalfWayUpAMountain]

Yes, I understand your point of view however what I like to take into consideration is that are ducks wild generation, for the most part, ate a high protein diet that consisted of frogs, fish, insects, vegetation, etc, and do we see wild mallards with Angel Wing that have not been around humans, not really.

In my opinion, the significant difference is one, these birds are much lighter then the breeds we have now, tend to grow slower overall because they weren't bred to, they also spend a great deal of time using energy to find food. I'm not a always go off the book, no matter what person, especially with topics like this that aren't completely understood, and that change throughout the year, I rather use my experience, many others, common sense, and if possible studies, to make a concise decision on what we might be talking about.

IMO, instead of worrying about cutting the protein so much, we should be more worrying about the environmental factors involved with the sudden onset of AW in ducks, to be specific lack of exercise.

I understand - my input was outside of the AW discussion and relates to diet in general.

 

[Isaac 0]

I understand - my input was outside of the AW discussion and relates to diet in general.

I see. I'm going back to the original topic of this thread, which was do I need to lower protein. Nice to have a friendly discussion, with someone.

 

[jolenesdad]

We need more information. Feeding waterfowl is tricky. Of course, ducks and geese in the wild didn’t develop angel wing.... or did they? And just die? We don’t 100% know. They can develop it in the wild, but modern day Wild ones its almost always assumed to be human diet related.

I, personally, am super big on striving for natural diets and ways of life, however, I’m incredibly aware that we keep our animals in captivity and must adjust.

my personal thought with angel wing is it’s mostly related to genetics and exercise. So, we need to know:

How do you keep tbem and do they get to get out on grass and do they swim?

I’ve fed some of my geese this year 20% until 7 weeks of age because I had mixed ages and I didn’t want to deal with it. My friend fed 15% that was cut to be lower, and still got AW this year. The only difference is I “walk” my geese two to three times a day around the entire property. Lots of exercise is so super important. That’s the biggest things wild ones get that ours don’t.

To the original question, you’re looking for about 16%. You could cut that 20% protein 50/50 with oats or scratch. I actually prefer to cut my waterfowl food with scratch. I find they eat it more uniformly. With oats I have several that will pick out the food from the oats.

those ducks need b vitamins and niacin. If they’re not grazing a lot, and really even if they are, I add nutritional yeast to their food. It has the niacin they need plus a range of b vitamins. Almost all waterfowl growth and leg issues were solved for me when I started using nutritional yeast. (Much better than BrewersYeast).

 

[416bigbore]

With all the changes I have seen along the way with our two ducks with AW, I have to agree on exercise being a very important part of helping correct this issue.

The one duck if you did not know he had AW you would not be able to pick that out by just looking at him. Our second duck still has some signs of the drooping wing yet, but seeing nice improvements with all the wing flapping exercise he does when out free ranging.

 

[HalfWayUpAMountain]

I see. I'm going back to the original topic of this thread, which was do I need to lower protein. Nice to have a friendly discussion, with someone.

Yes it is

 

[Ratchnick]

The benefits of restricting growth are more then just angel wing. Proponents claim that its healthier for the duck as a whole. Duckling starter is great if you want to grow out some ducks for eating as that is what it is designed for, but the rapid growth, (I think they are thefastest growing land based animal) is not good for longevity. That's the theory anyway. Using oatmeal to dilute is a tactic used to finish your bag of feed, not as an entire diet. Usually your going to get a bag of starter, use that straight for 2 weeks, then taper in the oats for a week or two, then switch to a grower feed. When i did it i had them on b complex and a premix.