Making your own Cross

[kizanne]

Ok so I have maybe a dumb question. I keep seeing where the old broilers were a true cornish rooster over some fast growing hen like a delaware.

Is there any reason why it couldn't be the other way.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying is there any reason you wouldn't want it that way. I understand you want you hens to be the great egg layers. BUT say you happened to have a delaware rooster and some large hen, like a cornish, jersey giant, orphington. If you crossed them would you still be a broiler type or does very specific traits come from mom and other specific traits come from dad?

 

[galanie]

Old timers said that the color comes from the dad and size and type from the mom. And I've found that to be pretty true but not 100%. You would want a big fast growing hen. Also, some traits are strange. In that a gene from the dad only shows up in the females, and one from the mom only shows in males. I don't know what all genes do this but it is the basis for sex links, in the case of coloring. But I do know that some others do this. So with what you're planning, maybe you'll get some meaty cockerels. I would give it a whirl. If I had space for all the chickens I wanted I'd be experimenting myself. I did have a nice Black Orpington rooster at one time that mated with a hatchery Dark Cornish hen. Only got one egg hatched and here he is at around 3 months:

 

[Oregon Blues]

It would be easier on the hens if you used great big hens and a smaller rooster instead of the other way around.

It wouldn't make any difference to me what color the chicken feathers were. I don't eat the feathers.

My family likes all that good breast meat, so it is Cornish Cross all the way for me. However, if you want to try breeding your own broilers, go for it. Let us know how it works out for you, and I hope you come up with something good.

 

[Cedarknob]

One very good reason for using good Cornish as the male side is that the true Cornish are poor layers; they were and still are a meat breed, not dual purpose like the big meaty White Rocks they once used as the female line.If you prefer the cleaner looking carcass that white feathered birds produce, both lines should be white or at least one line pure for dominant white, and my experience is that the birds sold as Cornish by the hatcheries will have nothing to add in a cross to a line of well bred, dual purpose hens. I think both male and female sides should be as big and meaty as possible to get good crosses, but prefer the males to be the larger. That said, I've used Ameruaucanas over commercially bred Cornish Rock pullets to get these chicks hatched in May. [They're the start of a blue/green egg layer that will dress out to nice eating bird.]

.

However, I also breed true Cornish [not hatchery type] and consider them the ultimate meat bird.

Nine month old Dark Cornish cockerel.




Young White Cornish cock.

 

[kizanne]

those are beautiful birds.

 

[Cedarknob]

those are beautiful birds.

Thank you. Quality Cornish are a pretty rare breed these days, and it is difficult to find them. Bear in mind that they have hard feathering, and their bodies are the actual size and shape dressed as they are alive. I was wanting them only to cross breed with, but fell in love with the pure bred Cornish once I had them. They probably don't appeal to everyone, and can't be bought at hatchery prices. However, once you get a start, the culls off the breedings can be the most meaty and flavorful table bird a person could ask for. The other side of the coin is that it is closer to 6 months than the 6 or 7 the weeks you can process a commercially bred broiler strain at, and you will not have as many eggs to eat as you do with well bred dual purpose breeds.

 

[galanie]

One very good reason for using good Cornish as the male side is that the true Cornish are poor layers; they were and still are a meat breed, not dual purpose like the big meaty White Rocks they once used as the female line.If you prefer the cleaner looking carcass that white feathered birds produce, both lines should be white or at least one line pure for dominant white, and my experience is that the birds sold as Cornish by the hatcheries will have nothing to add in a cross to a line of well bred, dual purpose hens. I think both male and female sides should be as big and meaty as possible to get good crosses, but prefer the males to be the larger. That said, I've used Ameruaucanas over commercially bred Cornish Rock pullets to get these chicks hatched in May. [They're the start of a blue/green egg layer that will dress out to nice eating bird.]

It was generally known 100 years ago by chicken breeders that a hen's egg laying ability came from the rooster, not the hen. That's one of those genes that gets transferred backwards that I mentioned before when I said they felt the size and shape mostly comes from the hen. Therefore I think the cornish should be the hen. But I suppose we'd have to do both and compare to really know lol.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It was generally known 100 years ago by chicken breeders that a hen's egg laying ability came from the rooster, not the hen.

Galanie, do you have a link to a report or something that supports that? I've seen it a few times but can't find any type of study that shows that.

Thanks

 

[Cedarknob]

It was generally known 100 years ago by chicken breeders that a hen's egg laying ability came from the rooster, not the hen. That's one of those genes that gets transferred backwards that I mentioned before when I said they felt the size and shape mostly comes from the hen. Therefore I think the cornish should be the hen. But I suppose we'd have to do both and compare to really know lol.

You may be correct, but here is a bit of the history about Brother Wilfrid's starting the breed known as the White Chantecler. He was a monk and a professor at the University of Oka, where he served as the head of the poultry department. Back at that time there was actually a need for breeds capable producing both meat and eggs for the necessary self sustained and somewhat isolated life of those living in rural areas; otherwise a family or institution was forced to either have two flocks, or one that was decidedly weak in the production of one or the other. Canadians had dual purpose breeds developed in other countries, but none had actually been developed by a Canadian. His father influenced him to develop a Canadian breed well suited for their climate.

" He studied all the breeds available at Oka and decided that the first breed to be used should be the Cornish because of its small comb and wattles. To improve egg production he bred the Cornish Male to a White Leghorn female. The progeny of this cross were of a gray colour but with no meat qualities. The second cross in the first year was to mate a Rhode Island Red male to a White Wyandotte female. This resulted in white progeny with black spots. There was however one beautiful male which had true Columbian Wyandotte colouring.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Knowing that the female transmits the feather colour and the male the conformation, Brother Wilfrid decided to mate this male with the best-coloured females from the first cross. The progeny was off white in colour and the majority had the characteristics of the Cornish. Unfortunately egg production was poor and the colouring was not standardized. "[/FONT]

It was surely a stretch to expect any breed to vastly improve the body of a Leghorn, and that simple cross was not successful. He also later added Plymouth White Rock before finally stopping the cross breeding and relying on culling to standardize them into a very good dual purpose breed. I know that the first successful commercial meat cross was the Van Tres brothers use of Cornish over New Hampshire Reds, but that soon changed to a very specific line of Cornish over their own specific line of Plymouth White Rocks. This was due to the American consumer's preference for the cleaner looking carcass left from white feathers being plucked. This led to commercial meat birds to become known as Cornish Rocks, a name that misleadingly sticks with them to this day.

There is no way I can beat the production qualities of a commercial broiler or egg laying strain, but I like the independence of breeding and raising at least some of my own food, and it just plain tastes better to me.

 

[galanie]

It was generally known 100 years ago by chicken breeders that a hen's egg laying ability came from the rooster, not the hen. That's one of those genes that gets transferred backwards that I mentioned before when I said they felt the size and shape mostly comes from the hen. Therefore I think the cornish should be the hen. But I suppose we'd have to do both and compare to really know lol.

You may be correct, but here is a bit of the history about Brother Wilfrid's starting the breed known as the White Chantecler. He was a monk and a professor at the University of Oka, where he served as the head of the poultry department. Back at that time there was actually a need for breeds capable producing both meat and eggs for the necessary self sustained and somewhat isolated life of those living in rural areas; otherwise a family or institution was forced to either have two flocks, or one that was decidedly weak in the production of one or the other. Canadians had dual purpose breeds developed in other countries, but none had actually been developed by a Canadian. His father influenced him to develop a Canadian breed well suited for their climate.

" He studied all the breeds available at Oka  and decided that the first breed to be used should be the Cornish because of its small comb and wattles. To improve egg production he bred the Cornish Male to a White Leghorn female. The progeny of this cross were of a gray colour but with no meat qualities. The second cross in the first year was to mate a Rhode Island Red male to a White Wyandotte female. This resulted in white progeny with black spots. There was however one beautiful male which had true Columbian Wyandotte colouring.
Knowing that the female transmits the feather colour and the male the conformation, Brother Wilfrid decided to mate this male with the best-coloured females from the first cross. The progeny was off white in colour and the majority had the characteristics of the Cornish. Unfortunately egg production was poor and the colouring was not standardized. "

It was surely a stretch to expect any breed to vastly improve the body of a Leghorn, and that simple cross was not successful. He also later added Plymouth White Rock before finally stopping the cross breeding and relying on culling to standardize them into a very good dual purpose breed. I know that the first successful commercial meat cross was the Van Tres brothers use of Cornish over New Hampshire Reds, but that soon changed to a very specific line of Cornish over their own specific line of Plymouth White Rocks. This was due to the American consumer's preference for the cleaner looking carcass left  from white feathers being plucked. This led to commercial meat birds to become known as Cornish Rocks, a name that misleadingly sticks with them to this day.

There is no way I can beat the production qualities of a commercial broiler or egg laying strain, but I like the independence of breeding and raising at least some of my own food, and it just plain tastes better to me.     

I don't have a study, just a reference to a very old book about raising chickens which I'll have to find tomorrow when it comes to the rooster transferring the egg laying ability. The above doesn't state how well the hens bred layed. So it's hard from that to decide if it's a valid thing or not just from that, since he picked color and no mention was made as to egg laying ability of the hens used. Often, one doesn't know the exact hen an egg came from as well. An issue I address with trap nesting when I need to know.

The passage "To improve egg production he bred the Cornish Male to a White Leghorn female." and then he came up with poor layers does seem to indicate that this is the case though.