Making your own feed

[rjmyooper]

I asked my feed mill if they have a recipe specifically for Ducks. I was told that "Tom" will be back in the store on Monday and he has made up recipes for other animals. I know they sell cracked and whole corn, animal grade oats and such, and I bought flax, sunflower and pumpkin seeds. Because I mill my own flour I have WW and Rye grain. I guess I have to look up the dietary value of each ingredient and adjust accordingly.
My 1st issue, as I see it, is that I'm raising Ducks and most of the articles and recipes are written for Chickens.
Ray's Feed Mill (now Parker Feed Mill) Norway, Mi.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

My 1st issue, as I see it, is that I'm raising Ducks and most of the articles and recipes are written for Chickens.
Ray's Feed Mill (now Parker Feed Mill) Norway, Mi.

Well why didn't you say so?

https://www.metzerfarms.com/nutritional-requirements.html
https://poultry.ces.ncsu.edu/backyard-flocks-eggs/other-fowl/feeding-ducks/
https://jasbsci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40104-017-0217-x
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119313094
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/niacin-deficiency-in-waterfowl.75862/

Yes, there is room for reasonable disagreements, but that should offer a good basis as to the general sense of the thing, and some useful links for researchign further. I raise Pekins, though its not my first (or second) focus.

 

[eira_barbara]

I think that those bug sources are all massively high fat, more than enough to make their *effective* use as a protein suppliment something that I personally question. Also, pricey. Very pricey.

Target numbers for chickens (depending upon age, breed, purpose) are usually given somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-20% protein, 3.5% fat +/-, 3.5% fiber +/-. Fat levels a bit higher for waterfowl and for "finishing" a meat bird to table weight.

BSFL (dried) are usually given nutrition labels in the range of 45% protein+/-, and 30-45%+ fat. Meaning at just 10% of the total poultry diet, they already represent all the target fat, but add just 4.5% to the total protein of the final mix.

The various grains around which most poultry diets are based can run anythere from 8-12% protein, so your 10% BSFL addition won't get you to targets, and they bring fat of their own. To juice up the recipe the rest of the way, most reach for seeds. High protein, very high fat - only there no longer any "room" in the recipe for all that fat. Part of why most home brew recipes have fat levels at some multiple of target numbers - and excess fat kills birds.

Those are my initial thoughts. You can sub in the numbers from other bugs, get largely similar results.

Idly, what do you think about cricket flour as a protein source? Crickets are a little more carbohydrate-heavy and a lot less fat-heavy than any larval insect protein, as I understand it; larvae of any species are always pretty high-fat. How do crickets stack up relative to fish meal as a potential protein source?

(I cannot imagine that cricket flour would be cost effective relative to fish meal, of course, let alone cost effective relative to commercially prepared diets. But I freely admit, I'm mildly curious just on a theoretical level, and there are several folks in here who are way better than I am at interpreting even back-of-the-envelope macronutrient balances in terms of diet concentration.)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Idly, what do you think about cricket flour as a protein source? Crickets are a little more carbohydrate-heavy and a lot less fat-heavy than any larval insect protein, as I understand it; larvae of any species are always pretty high-fat. How do crickets stack up relative to fish meal as a potential protein source?

(I cannot imagine that cricket flour would be cost effective relative to fish meal, of course, let alone cost effective relative to commercially prepared diets. But I freely admit, I'm mildly curious just on a theoretical level, and there are several folks in here who are way better than I am at interpreting even back-of-the-envelope macronutrient balances in terms of diet concentration.)

Just a google hit away. According to that source, 42-48% protein (as percent of dry matter, again, lower "as fed") and 23.5 - 29% fat. Slightly better than dried bsfl at first blush, but not much. If it was a lot better, I'd look next at Calcium levels, to ensure you weren't accidentally raising Ca above targets (hard to do for a dedicated layer feed, much easier to do for an "all flock all ages all gender" type feed).

I'd also look for related literature, like this, showing very high zinc content in cricket flours. Too much for a chicken? Better check.

That's the thing about this. Most people can't make a feed that gets just three numbers right. Protein, Fat, and Fiber. Those that can often struggle to get the next four right - Methionine, Lysine, Threonine, Tryptophan. After that, there's calcium and phosphorus, but not all calciums are the same, and not all phosphorus is the same. Chickens need non-phytate (maning not plant based) phosphorus - they are almost completely unable to use any P they get from plants. and then there's a host of vitamins and micronutrients - but not too much salt! Tannins, Lectins, Phytoestrogens, Trypsin-inhibitors, Beta-Glucans? All need to be considered.

But yes, as an exercise in understanding and an interesting thought experiment to check your comfort with the topic? Its worth a few moments thought.

 

[Faeshka]

These seem interesting with regards to earthworm meal. I wish the first one was free full text, since it'd be interesting to know what the other components of the diet are.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969720329776

I know I'm talking about laying chickens, and this study has broilers. Not sure what nutrition differences there are for broilers vs layers. Now I need to see if there are any studies where they completely replaced the fish meal with earthworm meal.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1871141321000020

This is the analysis of the earthworm meal used, which just sounds like sun dried and hand ground earthworms. Not that much fat, though obviously the Ca is an issue. "Earthworm meal was obtained from Eudrilus eugeniae and contained: ash −143.2 g/kg, crude protein −60.54%, crude fiber −2.35%, crude fat −0.90%, total phosphorus −14.6 g/kg, Ca. −60.3 g/kg, all on dry basis."

 

[U_Stormcrow]

These seem interesting with regards to earthworm meal. I wish the first one was free full text, since it'd be interesting to know what the other components of the diet are.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969720329776

I know I'm talking about laying chickens, and this study has broilers. Not sure what nutrition differences there are for broilers vs layers. Now I need to see if there are any studies where they completely replaced the fish meal with earthworm meal.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1871141321000020

This is the analysis of the earthworm meal used, which just sounds like sun dried and hand ground earthworms. Not that much fat, though obviously the Ca is an issue. "Earthworm meal was obtained from Eudrilus eugeniae and contained: ash −143.2 g/kg, crude protein −60.54%, crude fiber −2.35%, crude fat −0.90%, total phosphorus −14.6 g/kg, Ca. −60.3 g/kg, all on dry basis."

Generally speaking, owing to the higher growth rates and shorter intended lifespans, Broilers are fed on a substantially higher protein, higher energy (that is, higher fat - mostly) diet with higher methionine and lysine requirements than layers. I'd have to check sources, but I think they are higher threonine as well - but if you get the first two right, and your raw protein % is 20+ instead of bare 16, its likely you hit that number incidentally.

As to the rest? I think they made a typo. Here's (admittedly, small sample size) Earthworm Meal from feedipedia.com

Dried, its about 90% dry matter - that's pretty typical of all dry ingredients - moisture content at or below 10%

of that dry matter, 14.9% ash - consistent with the numbers above. 57.9% protein, again, in the range of the numbers above. Crude Fiber, 2.4% - almost exactly the number above. Fat (Ether Extract) 9%. NOT the 0.9% reported above.

/edit even so, if you can produce or obtain earthworms of the right type, in the needed quantity, it would be superior to BSFL in major respects. But that's a LOT Of worms. Earthworms are around 75% moisture so 100g of live earthworms is only about 28g once dried. My flock (without my pasture) needs about 16# per day of commercial feed, which is most of 7.25kg. If 10% of that were earthworm meal, I'd need 725g of dried earthworms per day - which is 2.5kg of (live weight) earthworms daily to be dried and ground.

This study says 8 earthworms per 43g (dry weight) of soil is the best stocking density. If the average earthworm is 2.5g, I need 1,000 per day live weight, in soil which (dry) weighs about 11# - which I would completelyt denude of earthworms. Multiply that by their reproductive rate, and I'd know how much soil I'd need to keep for growing earthworms in. Sources say they need up to 90 days to reach sexual maturity, then produce an egg weekly...

That's a decent amount of dirt.

and I only have about 80 birds.


(Someone chekc my math please)

 

[Faeshka]

Makes sense. I'm planning a flock of 6 layers, and I am not sure how much feed they would need so I don't know how much worms I'd need either. Sounds like I'd need a lot less. It seems like one of the issues with the test results we have for bugs is that they're for dried bugs. That helps the human ick factor, but chickens probably don't care. Now I'm wondering if feeding live insects would be better in terms of not feeding too much fat. If feeding live bugs is healthier for them, I'm willing to overcome my own personal ick factor.

As far as feeding earthworms, horse manure is just about as abundant as hydrogen here since I have 3 large manure makers....I mean wonderful ponies. Granted, they aren't full size horses but they do make a LOT of poop.

 

[Monks Mini Farm]

I was curious who makes their own feed for their chickens ? Was watching a YouTube video on a young lady making her own feed, she was using whole corn, black oil sun flower seeds,white millet, flaxseed , whole oats. She said she gets 22% protein out of the mix instead of 16% you get out of layer feed. She also said that the cost of her mix comes in at .23 cents a pound compared to the .26 cents a pound for the layer feed.
Was wondering what you all use in making your feed if you do make your own.
Mark

I make my own feed. 25lbs wheat, 25lbs cracked corn, 25lbs whole oats, 17lbs soybean meal, crushed toasted egg shells or oyster shells and thats about it. I am looking to sub out the oats though because mine dont like them as much. My chickens also free range during the day.

 

[OakRoadChicks]

Generally speaking, owing to the higher growth rates and shorter intended lifespans, Broilers are fed on a substantially higher protein, higher energy (that is, higher fat - mostly) diet with higher methionine and lysine requirements than layers. I'd have to check sources, but I think they are higher threonine as well - but if you get the first two right, and your raw protein % is 20+ instead of bare 16, its likely you hit that number incidentally.

As to the rest? I think they made a typo. Here's (admittedly, small sample size) Earthworm Meal from feedipedia.com

Dried, its about 90% dry matter - that's pretty typical of all dry ingredients - moisture content at or below 10%

of that dry matter, 14.9% ash - consistent with the numbers above. 57.9% protein, again, in the range of the numbers above. Crude Fiber, 2.4% - almost exactly the number above. Fat (Ether Extract) 9%. NOT the 0.9% reported above.

/edit even so, if you can produce or obtain earthworms of the right type, in the needed quantity, it would be superior to BSFL in major respects. But that's a LOT Of worms. Earthworms are around 75% moisture so 100g of live earthworms is only about 28g once dried. My flock (without my pasture) needs about 16# per day of commercial feed, which is most of 7.25kg. If 10% of that were earthworm meal, I'd need 725g of dried earthworms per day - which is 2.5kg of (live weight) earthworms daily to be dried and ground.

This study says 8 earthworms per 43g (dry weight) of soil is the best stocking density. If the average earthworm is 2.5g, I need 1,000 per day live weight, in soil which (dry) weighs about 11# - which I would completelyt denude of earthworms. Multiply that by their reproductive rate, and I'd know how much soil I'd need to keep for growing earthworms in. Sources say they need up to 90 days to reach sexual maturity, then produce an egg weekly...

That's a decent amount of dirt.

and I only have about 80 birds.


(Someone chekc my math please)

You seem super knowledgeable about chicken feed and I’m a newbie. I wanted to make my own feed but after reading your posts, it seems daunting and perhaps not the best idea. If I want to avoid soy, which commercial feed(s) would you recommend then for starter chicks, growers and then layers?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You seem super knowledgeable about chicken feed and I’m a newbie. I wanted to make my own feed but after reading your posts, it seems daunting and perhaps not the best idea. If I want to avoid soy, which commercial feed(s) would you recommend then for starter chicks, growers and then layers?

The first thing I would do is question WHY you want to avoid soy? Most do for reasons which are, at best, "poorly supported" by the science. Not that you can't make a good quality commercial feed without it, just that its much easier with it. and because there are few chemicals in soy which make it intact thru the chickens diegestive system and into the flesh (or the egg), but if you happen to be severely allergic to one of them, replacement of soy with another ingredient (alfalfa, peas, beans) high in those same chemicals doesn't improve things for you.

NewCountryOrganics has a starter which is soy-free and has been mentioned by some.
Nutritionally, I think its Methionine levels are low, particularly as a starter, though they are better than many. Poster @AgnesGray used to use NCO all the time,in serious quantity - but stopped, after two very expensive, very bad, batches in December of last year.

Scratch and Peck is probably the best national brand for soy free which is widely available THAT I AM AWARE OF, I believe they mill their starter, while the leave there other feeds whole grain (which has problems of its own). Even so, its easily 3x the price of what I pay for a nutritionally superior, not non-GMO, not Soy-free starter feed.

and there are lots of local/regional soy free feeds which vary wildly in quality. (I currently use a local feed specific to the wiregrass region of NW FL, southern AL, and not much further)