Managing flock in Collapsing Economy: Bye Bye Birdies.

[Tala]

Quote:
In a bad economy when you have human and natural predators to worry about, a GUARD dog is probably one asset that I'd continue to feed. A purely pet, not so much.
I assume that there will be a lot of dead predators that the dog can eat without resorting to sharing it your livestock, but even when you butcher or hunt something there are always "extra" parts you can feed it. Hubbs might have to fend for himself, but my guard dog takes care of me so I will take care of her.

Tala,

Think about this. I could be your neighbor and be eating those same predators for miles around because to me they are simply good eats. There will be other human neighbors too that will be doing same.

EDIT: Also game animals targeted for recreational harvest would not last a month if human population as whole starts going after it. This includes deer and turkey which have been extirpated from much of their range before when hunting pressure would have been much lighter.

Ya know, you are talking to me like I haven't thought things through before. I think that a whole lot of the human population will die off, rather quickly. Either from fighting and getting shot, or going crazy (extreme stress, lack of prescription meds and/or suicide, or again, people who need scripts to live won't last very long......I think there will be a lot less competition than you think. Plus all the pets that get turned out, I may not eat MY dog, but everyone else's is free game.

 

[centrarchid]

No offence intended. Apologies if taken.

I would prefer an option not so end of the world, rather just a bump in road. Their are too many people for environment to sustain if we try to live off land like people did a couple hundred years ago. Even if 90% of human population were to go down in month or so, most resources would be consumed by them first.

 

[GarlicEater]

Some good websites on these issues:

www.dieoff.org
www.ranprieur.com
www.survivalblog.com
"The Bison Survival Blog", about this one, I can't tell you where, but I can tell you where to look

"Survivalism" goes back a ways, and is most likely an outgrowth of the preparing for "nukler" war with the Godless Commies back in the 1950s. You get set to hunker down for a month, tops, and make sure to have plenty of weepons for the Russkie paratroopers or suddenly feral lib'ruls or something.

Many of us would call ourselves survivalists, since even just keeping a gallon of water and a tool box, blanket, first aid kit, etc in your car is being a survivalist - one who prepares for survival through a logically possible tough spot.

However, most of us think how it'll be something like the fall or rome (or any of umpteen other empires), a civilization loses its energy base, doesn't have room/resources to grow any more, and since with civ's it's grow-or-die, things get interesting. It's called catabolic collapse and is a good term to google. Diesoff.org talks about it extensively.

Fall of Rome may sound a bit dramatic, so let's use an easier term - a Great Depression that just keeps on getting Greater. College profs sweeping floors, homeless Ph.D's? Soup lines? All the features of the Great Depression are here, now. People are better dressed, thanks to overseas factories, and soup lines (which literally still exist, trust me!) are largely in the form of EBT (Food Stamp) cards now. And we still have all these great cars and things, bought just a few years ago. We'll see those same cars, '07 models and earlier, with a smattering of newer ones, being kept and run as long as possible.

The whole process is very slow but it IS happening.

So how is this going to affect what's important? The chickens? Well, the best way to protect against chicken thieves is to teach people how to keep their own chickens. Spread the word, and chicks, if you can. Teach people how to garden, encourage, lead by example.

We're already seeing a slight increase in crime, esp. crimes of desperation. A tight-knit neighborhood, knowing your neighbors and looking out for each other will be the most help. Along with teaching "chickening" and gardening, teaching and sharing skills like how to make a house a bit more burglar-proof, how to use defense tools from pepper spray to guns, etc. The 2030s, if not before, may well be like the 1930s and that was not a highly crime-ridden time.

 

[haemony]

People have been thinking it's the end of the world since the beginning of the world...or more like the beginning of people in the world. Not sure why but it's nothing new. I think people are easier to control when they are afraid so we have the control freaks among us who like to keep us in fear and worry. Don't let the bad clucks get you down.

 

[Beekissed]

It's gotta end sometime.....

 

[Kaceyx73]

Quote:
Points were multiple. First, intensity or amplitude of a disaster needs not be that great to overwhelm our society, rather just widespread. I see our government as being a very effective aid when a disaster is regional or short term like with a hurricane or blizzard.

It is the longer term or more widespread disaster that concerns me. With disasters to date, our government has had adequate resources. Bigger disasters will result in social breakdown through which a “country boy” is not likely to survive. You are correct in indicating the biggest unknown is the other guy (people). The problem is if you are in a location like where I live, even if you have 5 years worth food and water tucked away, you will not be able to keep it. Others will overwhelm your defenses and take it. Therefore to increase odds of surviving, you need friends / neighbors with whom you can pool resources and defenses. Basically you will have to adopt a much more localized government or social organization that can defend you.

I can put away food to last 6 months very easily and have plenty of land to provide food assuming weather does not kill garden. I am a nutritionist so setting aside quality foods easy. I will also eat anywhere in the food chain without having to be starved. Some bugs are tasty. My interest is in developing a survival system that will bring pretty much everyone through. That will increase odds technology / knowledge can be salvaged. Saving just self is a distant second best option.

You bring up an interesting point, one that many survivalists do in fact role play in their minds. It always begins with individuals. Someone, somewhere, has to take the initiative and do something. Case in point: There are numerous individuals in this thread alone that HAVE been thinking about these things, and acting on them, as individuals. One person loses hope and says something silly, even if just to be funny. Now there are 12 pages of comments about survivalism on a website dedicated to chickens... how ironic. LOL

Individuals bring their families. Families join into clans, clans into communities, communities into towns and so forth. This is the natural order of things. It always has been, always will be. Those that don't will eventually fall by the wayside.

For fun, I've already gotten a PM about growing rice. I posted an article on aolanswers last year and have gotten several emails. It begins with one. I'm sure many of you have seen folk come by and ask about raising chickens or whatever, only to see them with their own chicken math stories down the road. My survivalist nature has made some great friends, and I have taught those that will listen how necessary this is, and how easy it is. We won't change the world overnight, but as we keep talking about it we realize we aren't so alone, and we form connections and grow with each other. Its spiritual, mental, and physical.

Be contagious!!!

 

[GarlicEater]

Being a survivalist/prepper may be a nutzo belief, but it's a fairly USEFUL nutzo belief.

Getting out of debt, growing food, storing for a rainy day, learning new skills, KNOWING that survival means socializing and helping and relating to my neighbors, these are all pretty good things. I give people walking with that resigned walk that tells me they have some distance to travel, rides. I help people where and when I can. Learning to be frugal - only those who have learned to live within their means have any surplus to help others with.

As it stands, right now, in a good year if I work hard, I make 1/4 of the minimum wage. I do not make a lot of money. This is not because I'm dumb, or lazy. It's because I'm already in the "new normal". You, reading this, may not be yet. You may have a real, on the books, job still. You may even have a fairly stable one, like working for the gov't or a hospital or something. You may even still believe that those who have lost it all and become homeless are stupid, lazy, or wanted that to happen to them. You may believe this because inside, you know how easily it could happen to you. But I digress..... the point is, I make very little but because I have learned to be fairly frugal, I have excess to share. I give stuff away all the time. I can afford to - I could not afford to when I was working my butt off, grossing about $70k a year, living in the city, and wondering whether a heart attack or a nervous breakdown would bring me down.

I went and spent some of the landowner's money at Tractor Supply getting some feeders and waterers because I had chickens I was responsible for (once he left to go sailing for a few weeks) and I needed to give them a better feeding and watering system "STAT". But the stuff I bought, can also be built. Everything I paid money for, can be made, only "spending" time, rather than money. I needed time to work on the new coop. A lot of commercial products, used according to the instructions, work fine. Generally work great, in fact. The feeders and waterers I got, work great. It was a good trade of money, to save time. But ultimately, I can make all the stuff. I can make watering nipples and not even have to buy those, ultimately. That kind of frugality leads to an amazing and unusual freedom. When I know I do not absolutely depend on money to survive, that money is a useful tool but not a life necessity, I can literally afford to reach out to others, to neighbors, the way most scared, money-dependent Americans can't.

This is deep stuff for a chicken forum. The birdies are not gonna go bye-bye.

 

[swampducks]

Quote:
*shhh, you're not supposed to mention that, the government could be watching.*

 

[cybercat]

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It might not be the end of the world BUT if gas prices keep going up it will be worse than 3 years ago. When it happened 3 years ago we had coops being raided for eggs by niebors. Chickens stolen for food. Chickens dumped because families could not feed them anymore. With all these people buying chicks and making coops and feeding them high priced feed it is no wonder many will be unloading them because of cost. Just like the big corps many need to downsize their flocks to more managble size to be cost effective. Free ranging is cost effective if you do not have predator problems. Smaller flock is cost effective too in that you do not Need to sell eggs. Your main need is your family so think that way first. If keeping 12 hens gives you extra eggs to sell but you buy more feed to do it then sell or eat some hens. People tend to get more than they need. That is why our economy is such a mess now.

 

[Kaceyx73]

Great post, cybercat.

Also bear in mind that there is a huge difference between TEOTW and TEOTWAWKI. For you non survivalists out there, its not the end of the world, its the end of the world AS WE KNOW IT. Change is the only universal constant. Things will always change, for good or for ill. A lot of it depends on our individual perspective, but a lot also depends on those initiating changes.

You will reap what you sow, and that includes everything from preparing the soil all the way through post harvest milling and storage. It is all about the odds. If you scatter a few seeds on poor ground, you might get a few plants. A few seeds on ground you have poured your own soul into preparing will get you a bountiful harvest. If you plant too much and get a harvest you cannot contain you will have no where to put it, drive the value of your crop down, and will likely attract pests to destroy what's left. If you are faithful in the little things, you will be faithful in much.

Start small, and experiment. Never be so proud as to refuse to ask questions, and never refuse another asking reasonable questions of their own.

Be a mentor.

Be contagious.