Marandaise{origins of the dark brown egg {

[blackdotte]

A lovely romantic story, but unfortunately the English Game birds that were taken from merchant vessels and mated to the local French marsh hens happened in the reign of Henry Plantagenet & Elenor of Aquitaine ,1122 to 1204. The Dutch & British did not colonise Ceylon (Sri Lanka) until the mid 1600s & 1700s respectively.
David

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
I'll take this compliment with a healthy dose of condensation(sic).

Dilon Ripley imparted this ethnozoological history (versus romantic story) to me as a means to help us both gain comprehension of his selective breeding regime.
Some of his ethnography was published in his notes from Yale University late 1950's.

It is my understanding that while the first brown (vs beige) eggs in Europe may have been produced in Marais Poitevin during the 12th Century, anything resembling dark russet eggs were unknown until well into the 17th Century A.D. .

Regardless, cinnamon was imported into Egypt by the Bejawi as early as the 14th century B.C.E, during which time the progenitors of the Fayoumi ( known in Egypt and East Africa as the "Bigawi" chicken ) arrived. The Bejawi, who maintained trading routes between Sri Lanka and the Red Sea, traded extensively with the Hyksos forebears of the Phoenicians. According to archaeological record, Phoenicians carried domestic fowl around the Mediterranean, reaching the Iberian Peninsula by 11th century B.C.E. and the Cassiterides no later than 9th Century B.C.E..

As male Ceylon JF were carried to the court of Amenhotep II and again during the reign of Tutankhamen; and the presence of G. lafayetti male DNA is present in nuclear molecular studies of the Fayoumi, Barnesvelder and Marans (Hirihito et al), it could be deduced that the Phoenicians carried Fayoumi fowl to the Iberian Peninsula onwards to the Cassiterides during their lucrative tin trade.

Ten - twenty- forty generations later, limited founder populations-regional genetic drift- resulting in fairly homogeneous flocks - these few baskets of Fayoumi and Asil would create demes unique to the European continent.

With the (re) introduction of cinnamon trade fighting games during the 17th and 18th Centuries A.D. by the Dutch and English, by breeding 'Phoenician Marsh Hens' the fighting cocks
would be backcrossing, as I've used the term in these writings. They would be breeding back to stock that was closely related to their female progenitors. As these relatively closed flocks would have been fairly closely related- sharing a majority of genetic founders- introgression of 18th Century cinnamon trade gamecocks- would -and again- theoretically speaking, Reintroduced founder demes to a closely bred local population- and through this backcrossing- the genes responsible for dark russet eggs, red legs and so on -would reappear- these mutations-return -
Again- the majority of the genes are work here are shared with the Asil- two sets of novel genes- that of the sonnerati and lafayetti sires- they become accentuated within localized demes- the three specific Protoporphyrin pigments responsible for red eggs-a mutation born in this instance from the Ceylon Junglfowl - for one set genes expressed by specific pigments unique to Ceylon Junglefowl- expressed- characterized by blotches And freckling And background shell colour- with an infrequent mutation occurring -possibly correlated with specific nutrients being present or absent-
in localized populations of Ceylon Junglefowl -the preponderance of individual females within an isolated population- in Steep, narrow ravine embedded, dry hill forest,for example,
in these populations, a given hen may produce a single, wholly pigmented egg shell four or five times a lifetime-=average lifespan one year two four months- lets say-
The rest of the small ( for a junglefowl ) clutch being pigmented in a variable fashion. Whilst the typical forest inhabiting females produce a beige, finely freckled, and faintly blotched egg shell - with a dusky off-white undercolour-the deep ravine forest populations are producing more heavily pigmented eggs- reminiscent of a coturnix quail in some clutches- and the occasional red egg shell would appear from time to time.

In a captive situation, the founder base is further diminished and genetic variability is discouraged in order to produce domestic sports with consistent characteristics--
the mutation of the dark red egg shell emerges and these eggs are selected by Neolithic -Bronze age (Malay/Vedda) husbanders- respective peoples independently responsible for the original domestication of a regional deme of fowls. When this trait is encouraged- selected for it has an effect on the viable population. It isn't that other eggs were not hatched, its an issue of ,which chicks were nurtured to what degree-- how much investment of time and energy was put into each chick. When one onlyhas eight chicks to work with, one can expend a bit more time focusing on the objectives of the founders or descendants of your closed flock. When one has hundreds or even dozens of chicks, its simply more difficult to keep different lines straight -its difficult -less likely in any consistent basis- to adequately sculpt the progress- trim the orchard branches as they say-
so if only a dozen red shelled eggs are produced in a year and great care and engaged devotion is put into those eight eggs- say five hatch and three survive- two roosters and one hen--the three red shelled progeny are doted upon and maintained in an optimal manner - there is a slightly greater potential for the chicks of the red shell line to survive to reproduce for themselves, if only due to the desired aesthetic of the egg.
Of course in nature, nest predators would be selecting for the egg that was least concealed- particularly at bright moonlit night and during the glare of mid afternoon- -egg predators have a real influence on the egg shell colour -tint- patterns of every bird species and local race- even domestic birds-
if we theoretically eat the eggs that are not the darkest colours- then the red shelled eggs would be the most likely to survive incubation -
I think you can intuit (off the rails or no) where I'm going with this line of reasoning...

As Red JF lack the genetics responsible for variably pigmented eggs and lack the specific protoporphyrin molecules- present in Ceylon JF- attributable for red eggs- and the Grey only carries one of the three possible groups of genes responsible for the egg shell background- over which darker pigments would be applied in the process- producing wholly pigmented egg shells - once the trait is introduced to a closely bred lineage or closed flock of birds, that semi-recessive would only become more predominate with each generation of selective breeding.

Irregardless- marandaise fowl preceded the Marans fowl by at least two or three hundred years, with the refinement of russet egg to coffee russet egg being actively selected for only in the 19th century- not incidentally, about the same time as selective breeding on the Iberian coast- was refining the Penedesencas...The genes were already present- these Marsh Hens probably tended to produce darker pigmented eggs than Fayoumi or Campine due to the nest predation factors mentioned earlier- rather than being rock strewn desert grey tan or barnyard selected- off white- the Marsh Hen was producing dingy ochre- like some Fayoumi in the delta produce. The artificial selection factor is working in tandem with that of natural selection- as these fowl are not in the most ideal habitats for the descendants of a deep forest in subtropical Asia. Predators of nests and chicks- of juveniles and subadults- of adult hens; and adult roosters- there are predators that specialize on each life phase and season- they are picking off the individuals that have no business thriving there in that marsh in Marais Poitevin- simultaneously, human beings are artificially selecting for a specific egg shell colour(s)...Demes- hm.

These are domestic chickens, of course, but there are several genetic factors that include at least four or five major genetic bottlenecks -over a period of thousands of generations- that have taken place in their history. Like many of the cattle breeds, one has to expand the paradigm to allow for brief booms or busts of trade resulting in less genetic diversity within breeding stock- or increasing it- they work hand in hand


Something that also comes to mind are the periods of war that burned over the western coast of France- a tiny few handfuls of flocks were preserved in cellars -to become the entire basis for new generations of the Marans. A woman told me in Poutiou that her grandmother hid four marans hens and a single rooster in the root cellar of a former inn- during WWII.
Everyone else in their particular district-had their food stores plundered and so on- but her grandmother had the foresight to protect that stock by all means necessary-
when sanity had returned to her community- it was she that was selling eggs and chicks...

 

[upthecreek]

clapping clapping clapping clapping clapping

en core en core

 

[blackdotte]

Very interesting.
Please provide all the scientific references.
David

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
References? I can't recall ever reading a call for references on the BackYardChickens Forum.
As I've clogged up this thread with quite a bit of steady stream of thoughtlessness -on so many subjects- I think perhaps, readers would be better served to investigate all those traditional assertions- all that has been written in books and authoritative references on the origins of these dark egg producing breeds and after carefully reading through what is known- form your own opinions on the subject- Please share them here. I probably would have been better off in school if proved less interested in dynamic ideas and stop jumping to the conclusion that a rigid pedant's logic - how does it go- the great old tradition of the English's contempt for ideas- the great old tradition of the Japanese contempt for conjecture- I was once more familiar with all of these sayings- sense of humour at a very serious locus in time- none of them are meant to be anything but droll- put a smile on the face but writing into space like this lacks irony- is that right? I just reread what I wrote and it did not read like I was thinking it- I'm not salty by nature but this read like salted pork.

My first inclination to the request -just a thought or two-
If one is familiar with history, they might apply that curiosity towards the history of ancients who traveled the world centuries before Europe's classical age.
I think- that there is going to be a bit of disagreement about when Phoenicians did this or that- or who the Hyksos were or if Spain had chickens before the late Bronze age-
Comprehension of various ethnozoological theories on domestic fowl origins in the Mediterranean and North Africa isn't going to come within a peer review.
Acknowledging the significance of each phase in the development of agriculture- of domestication- it does come with a reference bibliography -but is it necessary?
Can people read up on the references I've included in the previous pages on this topic?

 

[blackdotte]

I could find little in the way of publications by Dillon Ripley.
Was this the same S Dillon Ribley, ex CIA who died in 2001?
I did find an S Dillon Ripley who projected that by 1995 75-85 percent of all animal species would be extinct because of no-population control of humans.
David

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
- Yes. Dr. Ripley died in 2001. The Ripley line of Marans are named after him. His academic career is what he is best known for. Several books he's published and numerous papers.
The International Gallery in Washington D.C. is named the Ripley Centre and of course there is the Ripley's Believe it or Not magazine, book and television series.
I only knew him as one our family's dearest oldest friends- I think it was his father Sidney that introduced Dillon to my grandfather with the intention of setting them off on some adventure together. But as it would happen, the naturalist didn't reappear in this family until my generation. Consequently, Dillon was the mentor that put me on the rails towards my own academic career- though I won't tar him with the brush of my lackadaisical science-underachiever here given the mentorship- but I will always remember Grampa Dillon as the most fascinating person I've ever had the blessing to know -a fierce advocate for field research- he was impatient with aviculturists that only kept birds to impress or sell- and found Delacour amusing, describing him in terms - well- nevermind- Dillon wasn't a bird watcher. He was an ornithologist. He told me he didn't consider most aviculturists ( in the Charles Sivelle generation) worth his time as they were wheeling and dealing -wild birds only kept for show and most ornithologists he knew were only glorified bird watchers.
Yes- you've got a life list going he'd mutter and then ask the twit what precisely the birds were doing - why put them down on your life list if you never learned anything not already written about them? I really enjoyed his gusto and miss him.
The only domestic birds he kept were some domestic mutations of wild birds and then his beloved Marans. Bev Davis tells me that the Ripley line are amongst the best in the U.S.A..
Many people have Ripley bloodlines in their own. I have several of his cuckoo.
I only hope that my stewardship doesn't fail them.



http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/13/u...-during-its-greatest-growth.html?pagewanted=1

 

[Resolution]

- a slight digression here- study on hatchability in terms of illumination, age of hen and egg shell colour.

Br Poult Sci. 2005 Apr;46(2):190-8.
Effect of intensity of eggshell pigment and illuminated incubation on hatchability of brown eggs.

Shafey TM, Al-Batshan HA, Ghannam MM, Al-Ayed MS.

Department of Animal Production, College of Agriculture, King Saud University, PO Box 2460, Riyadh 11451, Saudi Arabia. [email protected]

The effects of intensity of brown eggshell pigment (light (LBP), medium (MBP) and dark (DBP)) and light intensity during incubation (low and high, 900 to 1380 and 1430 to 2080 lux, respectively) on eggshell characteristics, embryonic growth, hatchability traits, chick hatching weight and hatching time were investigated using eggs from a meat-type breeder (Hybro) flock at 32, 36 and 41 weeks of age in three trials. With eggs of similar weights the intensity of brown pigment was not associated with eggshell weight and thickness, and did not influence embryo weight and egg weight loss during incubation. The shade of brown pigment of eggs laid by young hens influenced the percentage hatchability (HP) of eggs incubated under light. Illuminated incubation improved HP of LBP eggs (compared with MBP and DBP eggs) from 32- and 36-week-old hens, but had no significant effect on HP of eggs from 41-week-old hens. Light intensity during incubation did not influence egg weight loss. High intensity of light during incubation reduced HP and increased early death percentage (EDP) in the LBP and MBP groups, and did not influence HP and EDP in the DBP group. Brown eggshell pigment and intensity of light during incubation did not influence hatching time. It is concluded that the shade of brown pigment, intensity of light during incubation and age of the breeder hens influenced the hatchability performance of embryos from brown eggs. Light during incubation improved the hatchability of embryos in light brown eggs laid by young hens and the shade of brown pigment of eggs laid by older hens did not influence hatchability under illuminated incubation. High intensity of light during incubation reduced hatchability of light and medium brown eggs, but not the dark brown eggs.

PMID: 15957439 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

hm

What I'm thinking here- still stuck on the Ceylon Jf behavioral ecology strategy -returning to this theory- Ceylon -Sri Lanka Junglefowl being the correct name actually-
Sri Lanka Junglefowl often nest in arboreal locations- be that on a ravine ledge between some moss and lichen covered rock edges or in some Columbiform or perching bird's nest.
It's incredibly humid and hot at the height of the day in Sri Lanka especially in the dry forest the species prefers. Leaf litter is deep with moisture trapped under it and this is also where a healthy foraging environment is to be discovered- for an insectivore like the Sri Lanka Junglefowl. Because there is so little food to be found in these deep forest environments- and even then - the most ecologically specialized are at a distinct advantage- An ecological specialist like the Sri Lanka Junglefowl is better suited to live in the strange steep ravine hill forest of Sri Lanka than the ecological generalist Red Junglefowl, which is adapted for life in markedly wetter and flatter habitat- more thickly vegetated habitat- Ecological challenges are met with by adaptation- even (and perhaps most markedly in some cases) in domestic species. One observes glossy black chickens on and around the boats of forest villages in Sumatra-and Borneo- the forest is perpetually dark and moist- foraging for food in the rain forest is not something a Red Junglefowl is adapted to do. Its scratching and carrying on attract predators and wet vegetation is no cover for a Red Junglefowl. These Black Boat Fowl -descended of Red Junglefowl- (with a bit of Green Junglefowl male DNA swimming about there) for lack of a better term- they seem happiest right around and on the boats themselves. You can't see them in the shadows of the jungle when they stand still- and no nocturnal predator could locate them by sight alone at night..
The easiest food is gleaned from the days fishing- scales and the like- they inhabit the dwellings of the people-that was a complete digression...

- Sri Lanka Junglefowl variably pigmented egg shells.
As the impetus to cover eggs to maintain their temperature in the incredibly humid, yet dry as a bone evergreen forest- it has less to do with keeping the eggs warm during the day- and more to do with keeping them cool- Nesting above the ground where humidity is a bit less stifling- and with the prospects of air currents- some cooler hours- -perhaps less investment in incubating- another aside here is that the Sri Lanka Junglefowl incubation rate is four to five days earlier than the Red JF and domestic fowl (save for Colloncas and Quetero)- in the incubator- this may reflect that the species actually spends less time incubating them in nature- letting the environment incubate the eggs for a few more hours of day than the wet forest-adapted Red JF. The Sri Lanka junglefowl family unit may consequently be able to spend more time in a given day foraging-no small issue in habitats where food is difficult to uncover beneath leaf litter-they really travel quite a bit in a given day- like Green Junglefowl- their home radius is several miles- not hundreds of yards- At any rate, the nest of the (localized populations of ravine inhabiting) Sri Lanka Junglefowl exposed to more illumination be that through the canopy or what have you- the egg patterned would have an advantage over one that was too light or too dark- - I guess what I'm thinking here is that one reason a highly cryptic egg shell needs to be variably pigmented is the requirement of its mother to forage away from the nest during specific hours of the day- hours that a pale egg shell producing species would be covering her eggs against rain -or shadow...
The variable pigment deposited on the egg shell not only acts as concealment- it also helps an egg thermoregulate- protecting against hours of intense illumination-
no Red Junglefowl would dare lay eggs out from under heavy cover. A Red JF would never take over the nest of a magpie- its too rainy and some percentage of egg predators- are flying birds naturally- so the Sri Lanka junglefowl is foraging further afield during certain hours of the day and variably pigmented egg shells may help increase survivability of clutches...
Completely pigmented and more heavily pigmented eggs appear to come about when certain nutrients are lacking. If the Sri Lanka Junglefowls' habitat is experiencing an unusually dry or wet cycle- a decade of late wet monsoons or what have you- the birds signal invertebrate prey- terrestrial crustaceans -copepods- isopods- land crab hatchlings- they fail to appear on time in the sorts of numbers that might be considered ideal for such a highly insectivorous species- calcium, sugar and fat are in inadequate supply- the family unit is obliged to wander further afield is that farther or further? To find more adequate nutrition sources- their nesting territories are not moving- but their daily radius is-oscillating over a given habitat- the egg shells end up being more heavily pigmented- as the hens are missing for more hours of the day- she can't afford to begin to set firmly until her fat stores are at their highest- she's the primary caretaker of that clutch of chicks after all- and she will be sacrificing her own satiation for that of the clutch..

Another factor that comes to mind is the reproductive strategy of the Sri Lanka junglefowl- each female with a nesting territory is consorted by at least three males. Only one which is actually her mate ( at a time at any rate)- the other two are his armed escort- curious strategy- one could define it as a form of polyandry- or possibly leaning towards at least serial monogamy-
as the Sri Lanka jf hen hatches her chicks- she leaves them in the company of the escort in short time and moves to recycle as soon as possible. While she is back on her next clutch- and there are several nest sites on each nesting territory- each male bound to his own realestate- , which he encourages the female to visit- he literally selects nest sites for her and carries nesting material to them as part of his actual protracted courtship- while she is setting on her next clutch of eggs- the juveniles are under the direct care and supervision of the escort before eventually joining a creche - so there is safety in numbers- foraging in numbers is important for the survival of flock members - not essential- but helpful-
that hen can theoretically stay of her eggs for quite some time if the temperatures are ideal- hmm

How does this link or not to dark egg producing breeds? One wonders if these hens are also leaving their eggs where direct sunlight passes over them- and in far cooler climes- the hen only lays an egg every two to four days- she's foraging that whole time - nest predators don't see the eggs at night nor during the day- she builds up a clutch and Eventually begins to set- but another selection on egg pigment is well underway and working simultaneously- for those Marandaise Marsh Hens- in the formation of the Marans breed.
The Barnesvelder- something tells me the Dutch were always fastidious poultry stewards. My instinct tells me they held on to their spice trade stock as heirlooms of a dear relative long passed or living elsewhere...hm



Anyway- Sri Lanka- one finds Sri Lanka Junglefowl in a lot of habitats, including secondary jungle, tea and teak plantations; wet evergreen -anywhere human beings drive through jungle.- Naturalists with a bit more handle on ecosystematics than bird watchers- like Beebe and Ripley-have made the assertion that there are many more Sri Lanka Junglefowl in the dry evergreen forest habitats at higher elevations- this is probably also before the advent of ecotourism- but both these naturalists surmised that due to their observations of much higher populations being present at higher elevations in dry evergreen habitats as opposed to lush lowland jungle- tropical savannah and ocean scrub habitats- that the natural habitat of the Sri Lanka junglefowl is there.
When one climbs through the hill forest- one is surprised at the vertical nature of these biozones- and sandwiched between these enormous granite flat top sheets of escarpments-
one sees an accordion of sorts stretched out for miles or hundreds of years depending on what vista you're gazing down on- its a serious struggle to really climb through- but one must - and there micro habitats emerge from one condominium project to the next- they look just like the ridges of a horses tooth- and here is where the Sri Lanka Junglefowl is densest in population.
I'm posting a few photos of Sri Lanka to give an idea of what these habitats look like -that originally produced variable egg shell pigments in this species- but so far the photos ive uncovered are not so great on the net- and my photos need to scanned and digitalized. These photos should give you an idea nevertheless.

The flat, coverless grassland is generally shunned by Sri Lanka Junglefowl as raptors are always on the hunt for small to medium sized ground birds.
Ascending in elevation, the dry evergreen forest emerges and here is where Sri Lanka Junglefowl are more common. Deep within the hill forest, one encounters curiously steep and often vertical ravines that resemble a horse's tooth- pungent leaf litter is yards deep in some places. Here is where Sri Lanka Junglefowl are most common.

This is obviously an exposed mountain face in Sri Lanka - not a junglefowl habitat but provides some scale.

This last photo is the limestone formation dry evergreen forest characteristic of central Madagascar. Sri Lanka is a fragment of Madagascar, and as such has its own limestone formations buried under a thicker carpet of vegetation- because unlike Madagascar, Sri Lanka attracts moisture, especially in the highlands. Nevertheless, the Sri Lanka dry evergreen forest is well above swampy lowland rainforests of the coast and well below the seasonal rain forest of the highest elevations. It is in these vertical ravines that Sri Lanka Junglefowl are best adapted. Theoretically speaking, it is the exposure to bright light for extended periods of time in these microhabitats that the Sri Lanka Junglefowl prefers to nest in- that results in the expression of variably pigmented eggs shells- in these localized populations- ​

 

[upthecreek]

Thanks for all the info !!! as usual some are intimdated by other's knowledge and go out of their way to disect it . Just noticed this type of reaction in the darkeggers group in the last few days .
Thanks and i'm looking forward to your influx of knowledge to this group (which i might add is refreshing) .
Shannon Nelson

 

[halo]

I can't thank you enough for taking the time and effort to post all the information you have in this thread. Incredibly fascinating read. Thank you!!