Meat mixes...... What have you tried?

[SnapdragonQ]

I've recently been trying to read up on some of the various meat bird mixes people have tried.
@duluthralphie 's thread about toads was fascinating! It was nice to see posts about what worked as well as what didn't work. On that vein I'm curious about some of the mixes people have tried and what did or did not work for them.
I'm not so much after someone's secret sauce as I am what doesn't work so that I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel.

Me- long time chicken keeper primarily for eggs but have done meat birds numerous times (CX and RR) in chicken tractors with excellent results. I appreciate being more self sustainable in that way but am trying to get away from relying only on hatcheries for each batch of new chicks in order to feed my family. Have had a few DP roos here and there that made it to the table, but was usually disappointed after the effort to get them there.

Breeding experience- Not much with chickens beyond barnyard mixes, but I do have experience breeding other livestock and understand setting goals, how to set traits, and F1, F2s....ect. I'd like to gather more information before I cement any chicken goals at this point.

So what breeds/mixes have you tried?
What worked for you?
What didn't work for you?


edit: typo

 

[duluthralphie]

I think my biggest error was not starting enough birds.

I you truly want a sustainable meat bird, I suggest you have 20 birds in F1.

Also if several breeders in varying areas could breed similar birds it would help.

My toads had promise, but each generation the genetic material became less and less varied.

The entire strain is now limited to 2 roosters and 3 hens. The hens are healthy. the roosters seem healthy but I have Problems with crippled feet.

Also, I needed to get a rose or cushion comb on them in F2. They would have looked better and less chance of infection in the boys. Frostbite being a problem up here.

Lastly, in the south a bird like the Toads will likely fail because of the inability to rid themselves of body heat. Their mass is huge. They did well below Zero but above 70 they suffer.

The toads I have left will live out their days in comfort. They are retired, because they are such sweet birds.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have not tried to use Cornish X or Rangers. A big problem is not actually getting good mixes or results but more to keep them alive long enough to breed. Rangers are much easier with that goal.

I started with hatchery birds. Even the breeds that used to be meat breeds, Delaware, New Hampshire, and some strains of White Rock here in the US, are no longer being bred for meat properties. Those aren't bad choices but there are other hatchery birds I consider just as good. Each hatchery has different people selecting which birds get to breed so don't expect any consistency across different hatcheries either. That can vary by hatchery.

Another problem ties into what Ralph mentioned. When I bring in a hatchery cockerel to become my flock master breeding bird I get a bunch. Last time it happened to tie in with Ralph's 20. You will notice a huge difference in the smallest and largest. Another factor is how fast they mature. You don't necessarily want your breeding rooster to be the biggest possible, you want the one that will be the largest at the age you plan to butcher. There is a difference. Out of those 20, three made my final cut. The others were pretty easy to disqualify. A general rule. Eat the ones you don't want to. Breed the ones you'd rather eat.

Since you understand breeding I'm sure you know that roosters contribute as much genetics to laying as the hens and hens contribute as much genetics to the meat qualities of the cockerels as the roosters. Ignoring sex linked genes of course but that's not important to this discussion. Roosters don't lay eggs and hens aren't built the way roosters are. So look to the hens for egg laying and roosters for meat qualities when breeding. if you are after egg laying, keep a rooster that hatched from an egg laid by a hen that lays well. If you are after a meat bird keep hens that had a father that was a good meat bird. It's not just about keeping the right cockerel.

Start with the best stock you can. If you go the hatchery route I'd be tempted to get maybe five males of four or five different breeds and pick your favorite from them. Puts meat in your freezer that season as you make your decision.

"Breeders" can be a gamble. Some are good, some may not really know what they are doing. Some breed grand champion chickens, some take hatchery birds and breed them, calling them purebreds. Some good breeders are breeding for show, some may not be breeding for show but more for the qualities you are after. If you can find someone breeding for your goals and know what they are doing, you are in clover. Someone breeding for show but not necessarily for meat qualities will probably have pretty large birds compared to a hatchery but how early they mature can be a gamble. Prices for chicks or hatching eggs will be a lot more than hatchery prices and deservedly so for good ones.

I don't know how to get in touch with a breeder in your area breeding for your goals. The APA (American Poultry Association) has contacts for breeders clubs for many different breeds on their website.

What do you plan to do with the pullets you hatch? I eat my extras, some people sell them. You need a plan so you are not overrun with pullets and hens.

The fewer goals you have the faster you will get there. I breed for egg color and feather color as much as for meat. The more chicks you hatch the better quality you have to choose from but sometimes you have to make trade offs when you have several goals.

 

[Morrigan]

Right now, I am in the midst of breeding a Naked Neck rooster to various hens with the goal of creating a decent meat bird with good heat tolerance. My summers have multiple days over 100 degrees, so I share the problems that @duluthralphie has in trying to keep large fowl alive during the summer.

My first one off experiment was an NN over English Orpington which resulted in a 3.75 lb cockerel at 16 weeks, so a little on the small side (but tender and tasty).

My second, more focused attempt is underway, and is the NN over a Red Ranger hen and a NN over a Slow White Broiler hen. I have 8, 8 week old chicks right now from that. A few of them look very promising, others, not so much. I happened to put 2 CX chicks from Tractor Supply into the brooder with the others and the one thing I can say, is that there is no comparison at all in the size and growth rate between my mixes and the CX. But, it's great to hatch my own, and watch them lead a more normal, active chicken life the the CX.

At the end of the day, I will be very satisfied if I can get to a place where cockerels are dressing out at 4 to 5 lbs at 15 or 16 weeks. I can see already, that it will be a long process, and one thing I need to think about is the issue of infusing fresh genetics into the flock every couple of years.

 

[Morrigan]

A general rule. Eat the ones you don't want to. Breed the ones you'd rather eat.

Great advice. The expression I keep in mind is "save the best, eat the rest."

What do you plan to do with the pullets you hatch? I eat my extras, some people sell them. You need a plan so you are not overrun with pullets and hens.

That's actually the hardest part of raising true dual purpose birds. We didn't want to sell our extra pullets and hens because firstly, we would like the meat from them. If you are only going to eat half of what you hatch, you need to raise a lot more chicks up, with the attendant space issues and work. Second, we didn't want the hassles of running an ongoing chicken sales operation. Either we would be driving around to swaps or having people on and off our property around the chickens.

That be said, we butchered some 1 and 2 year old hens earlier this year, and it was hard. There's something about killing a laying hen and pulling developing eggs out of the carcass that makes the butchering even more mentally difficult than it already is. We are not giving up on the idea, but we now realize an extra bit of mental toughness and discipline is required.

 

[SnapdragonQ]

Excellent points everyone, thank you.

Hens- some I'm hoping to put into the program of course, some I may sell, and others will probably go in the freezer with the boys. The idea (which is still fluid) is to process any hens before they start to lay. At that point it may be too hard for me.
My space is limited, or rather not really developed for chickens yet (recently moved) but even so my family is small so keeping a larger number of birds is not desired at this time. Unless they are growing out.

I'm aiming for the general qualities of Red Ranger types and don't mind waiting extra for development. I mean it's nice to have a young chicken that's the size of a small turkey in 50 to 60 days, like my 6.5 to 8lb dressed CX did, but I know that's not self sustainable or possible. Besides, not every chicken will be a Sunday roaster so doesn't need to be twice the size of my crockpot.
An active bird that can work for part of it's food and tolerate some heat is desirable. July and August are the hottest but I'm a little elevated and things cool down nicely in the evenings. And combs don't matter much here for cold considerations, not like my previous farm where frostbite was a big concern.

Eggs will only be needed from this group in furtherance of the project. I have a dozen layers now who keep us well stocked in eggs. Too well stocked in fact, and I currently have an Aussie roo (oopsie roo) who I ended up keeping because so far he is remaining nice (little over 1yro) and takes good care of his Aussie hen.
Initially I had thought to try him with my main flock (currently rocks types) and see how those meat qualities might turn out, but he is just too slight and no doubt bred for laying. Ok, I confess, initially I had thought to get rid of him before he turned mean....but he hasn't done that yet and recent events started me thinking more long term about chicken goals.
At any rate, my current hens are also on the lighter side but I got them for egg laying to begin with so probably a good cross with the Aussie roo if I want to hatch out more layers.

What heritage or DP roos do you guys like or think might fit in to cross over some RR hens for round one?

edit: grammar

 

[Torinik]

I am currently trying a broiler/laying-hen mix. The broiler being some sort of white CX but maybe not the very fast growing kind. The two roosters I kept for breeding were 3kg (+6.5lbs) and 4kg (8.8lbs) clean (skinned, all innards out, feet off), when I processed them around six months of age. I did restrict their feed and they managed to forage quite well. They did mount the hens well and started crowing around 4 months of age.
The laying-hen being an isa-brown I would imagine.

The plan was to get some faster growth in my brahmas but that didn't work out as hoped, big rooster did not fertilize one egg, smaller rooster did take with a small brahma. I ended up putting 6 extra eggs (isa-brown) in the incubator because I had the space due to lack of brahma eggs.

The six (F1) turned out 4 boys and 2 girls. Big difference in growth between the six. I kept the best rooster and both hens. The faster growing hen started laying at 4 months (from mid-summer last year, all through the winter, had a two week stop in March and been laying again since then).
The smaller hen was well over six months when she started laying (nearly seven I think), and still well behind her sister in development. She has caught up by now and surpassed the fast-grower in size.
Egg size was consistently around 80 grams all through winter, but has gone down now (around 70gr and less). I should add we had no snow this year and hardly any frost.
When I butchered the rooster (F1) he was 3kg clean at 11 months.

I've had three F2 rounds hatch. I'm having fertility and hatching problems. Last round I put in 24 eggs, of which 8 were unfertilized, 8 didn't make it out of their shells and 8 hatched. Of those 8, one died after a day and one had a bad leg. The six that are left are doing very well and are extremely active.

I butchered the first F2 cockerel at almost 20 weeks. I'm selecting on broadness first, this one was narrow so had to go. One thing that stands out is that some are very narrow, especially the pullets. They seem to fill out though as they get older, the roosters are being processed before they get there. I'm keeping the widest to continue.
Even though this cockerel was so narrow, he was quite meaty, especially in chest meat. He was 1.2kg (2.6lbs) clean. Taste wise, this one was as good as it gets, and not at all tough at nearly 20 weeks, he was fried slowly in a saucepan for half an hour. But taste is very subjective, I like the brahmas in a coq au vin but not any other way for example.

The reason for trying this is that it's been getting increasingly harder to buy meat-chicks. We used to be able to just go to one of the weekly markets around the area and buy whatever. The last few years markets in general (covid now) and poultry specifically are being restricted. Every year there's some bird-flu going round that calls for prohibiting the sale and transport of poultry (!?). Even when there's no restrictions it's sometimes hard to get your hands on fast growing meat-chickens.

So, the goal is to have something that lays a decent amount of eggs, for eating and hatching, and that doesn't eat like a docker but still puts a decent amount of meat on in a reasonable amount of time, 20 weeks would be ideal.
For numbers, as a bit of a guiding goal that might change as I go, I want around 200 eggs a year for the hens (I'm way over that for now, looking at 300+ if they keep going the way they have) and an average 2 kg (preferably more but will have to see as I go) clean carcass at 20 weeks for the cockerels.

The plan before winter was to breed F1 to F1, F2 to F2, and so on for 5 generations to get the type I want right, and then start worrying about other aspects.
I have changed that plan as I'm in no hurry (they grow ok, taste good and lay great) and don't have the space to keep 3 or 4 separate coops for the spiral breeding method.
I will be keeping my F1 hens and the best (broadest) hens of successive generations. I will pick one or two roosters to breed with all the hens and process them when their second batch of offspring hatches. This way there will always be an aunt and great-aunt they breed with. I'm hoping to keep inbreeding problems low this way. If I'm missing something, please feel free to correct me, I've had chickens for over forty years but my breeding experience and genetic knowledge is very limited.

With the brahmas I had a hatching rate of +80% and sometimes even 100%. They did make it out of the shell but some of them were very weak and I ended up culling them over time anyway.
I'm at 33% hatching and 25% surviving and growing well with my last batch of broiler/layer. I think the hardness/thickness of the shell has something to do with it, the brahma shells are markedly softer/thinner. They all get the same food.
If I can get that up to 50% surviving and growing well to butcher or egg-laying age, I think I should be doing ok. Natural selection should do that for me where the shells are too thick if that's what's going on. Any thoughts on this matter are also very welcome.

 

[FortCluck]

I have been hatching mixed breeds for meat and eggs.

So far we have done olive egger crosses, jersey giant crosses, deathlayer crosses, orpington crosses, and Easter egger crosses.

Out of all of those crosses the only ones that we did not like where the Orpington and the Jersey Giant.

The Jersey Giant rooster was amazing and if anyone ever wants a rooster I would recommend that breed until my face turned blue. The reason why we did not like the crosses for meat is because they take a very long time to get a substantial amount of meat on them even if you cross them. For the laying aspect of a Jersey giant cross, they are amazing. I gave two of my Jersey giant crosses to one of my friends and they started laying at 20 weeks every single day.

The Orpington Cross was way too many feathers and you had to soak it for several minutes with water before you even attempted to skin it. The feathers on an Orpington are overwhelming. The meat on the Orpington though was way more than the Jersey Giant.

All of the other crosses that we have done have been great meat wise especially in the breast area which is where the best meat is according to my family.

 

[SnapdragonQ]

Thanks again you guys for your input.
I have an order in for some chicks for June. I have some Red Ranger types, in the hopes I can keep at least a few females, and I have some Partridge Rocks and some Jersey Giants.
While I know the JG will take longer to mature I thought it might prove interesting if I could cross the JG and the Rangers. Or the P. Rocks and the Rangers. I'll get male and females of each so will have some (hopefully) bigger bodies birds to work with. I've got enough meat in the freezer for a while and whatever doesn't make the cut can go to freezer camp this fall.

I don't mind if the birds mature more slowly, as long as I can get a worthwhile bird before 6 months of age. I still have time to add any breeds to the order....besides Orpington, does anyone have any ideas? The plan will be to skin initially so the amount of feathers shouldn't factor too much.

 

[orrpeople]

I would kind of like to revive this conversation. I really enjoyed reading it through.

We had some Bielefelders at one point that we decided not to continue breeding (terrible egg production and pretty gluttonous). But, as barnyard mixing goes during times when the general population is released from pens and somebody goes broody and a different somebody lets her hatch, we have two beautiful (huge!!) Biele/Marans crosses - 1 cockerel, 1 pullet (who is laying a nice dark egg very regularly).

I am wondering if I should throw my 2 remaining Biele hens and my 3 or so broadest Marans in with them and see what hatches. I don't have a Marans rooster (I also decided against breeding them - never could get egg color dark enough) or I could have maybe worked towards sex links...still could - if I get enough big beautiful barred pullets...

Our biggest problem with the slow growing v. CX is the quality of the meat. I don't even really care how little there is - it just always seems very tight and chewy (even in a crock pot or pressure cooker). But I also really hate the short, non-chicken-like lives the CX live.

Sooo... Your thoughts? Your updates since this thread began? I'd love to hear them.