Medicated vs. Unmedicated

[U_Stormcrow]

Im curious to know whether injectable B complex for support is warranted during medicated stages (in chicks) in acute symptomatic cases (in all stock). Thiamine stores and intracellular levels have no osmotic pressure to cross back into the gut (as far as i know, i could be wrong hell the odds are always good that i am) so as an injectable bypassing the PO route the B's can remain accessible to the critter. Certainly B12 should be given to goats to keep polio at bay. Complex will also help avoid goat gut issues i should think.
A syptomatic outbreak in chicks could be less fatal with B complex injection perhaps (?)
I would have to look up the doses. Im sure they are so small an insulin syringe would be the best hardware to use. Thoughts?

I have no thoughts at all. I'm trying to make a layperson study of feeding chickens, and leaving illness/injury to others of greater expertise and experience.

That said, the abount of Niacin "blocked" by Amprolium, relative to the size of a chicken, is EXTREMELY small, which is why tiny doses of extra B3 as support in the feed so easily overwhelms the action of the Amprolium. Nor do short term B3 deficits have long term effects on the body - the damage is quickly repaired when B3 levels return to normal.

AND, chickens can take an excess of the amino acid tryptophan and convert it into Niacin if needed. While tryptophan doesn't appear on the guaranteed nutritional analysis of feed labels here int he US, the ingredients list does. As a partial list of ingredients which, pound per pound, well exceed the recommended Tryp levels for chickens, I offer:

Blood Meal, Fish Meal (crab, shrimp, etc), Soybean Meal, Soybeans, Sesame, Cottonseed meal, Brewers Yeast, Hemp Seed, Flax Seed, Peanut Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Worm Meal, Cowpeas, Rapeseed Meal...

You know what, its probably easier to mention the things that don't provide enough Tryp on their own. Oats, Soft Wheat, Barley, Triticale, Rye, Sorghum. some varieties of Millet- and all but the last three provide about 3/4 of the level recommended for chickens, so its a deficit relatively easy to correct. Most of the seeds provide roughly twice the needed levels, many of the meals provide three times the needed levels...

So I don't see the necessity of support.

Based on what little I know, In theory, you are correct. In practice? Excess B3 is water soluable and excreted by the body - I'd be worried that if the IV dosage was even a little wrong, extra B3 would be flushed from the bloodstream back into the waste at the tail end of the chicken's digestive tract - so maybe the Amprolium is effective in the upper GI, but less effective in the lower GI???

So, maybe I had a few thoughts.

I could be overthinking it, and I really don't know. Also, MORE COFFEE!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Are cocci vax only good if given on day 1?

The Cocci vax needs two to three weeks to work so it needs to be given a couple of weeks before they are exposed to Cocci. In theory age doesn't matter. In practical terms that means day olds or real close.

 

[3KillerBs]

The Cocci vax needs two to three weeks to work so it needs to be given a couple of weeks before they are exposed to Cocci. In theory age doesn't matter. In practical terms that means day olds or real close.

And assumes brooding in an area free from exposure to the ground and/or adult chickens.

 

[Regina Larsen]

I have no thoughts at all. I'm trying to make a layperson study of feeding chickens, and leaving illness/injury to others of greater expertise and experience.

That said, the abount of Niacin "blocked" by Amprolium, relative to the size of a chicken, is EXTREMELY small, which is why tiny doses of extra B3 as support in the feed so easily overwhelms the action of the Amprolium. Nor do short term B3 deficits have long term effects on the body - the damage is quickly repaired when B3 levels return to normal.

AND, chickens can take an excess of the amino acid tryptophan and convert it into Niacin if needed. While tryptophan doesn't appear on the guaranteed nutritional analysis of feed labels here int he US, the ingredients list does. As a partial list of ingredients which, pound per pound, well exceed the recommended Tryp levels for chickens, I offer:

Blood Meal, Fish Meal (crab, shrimp, etc), Soybean Meal, Soybeans, Sesame, Cottonseed meal, Brewers Yeast, Hemp Seed, Flax Seed, Peanut Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Worm Meal, Cowpeas, Rapeseed Meal...

You know what, its probably easier to mention the things that don't provide enough Tryp on their own. Oats, Soft Wheat, Barley, Triticale, Rye, Sorghum. some varieties of Millet- and all but the last three provide about 3/4 of the level recommended for chickens, so its a deficit relatively easy to correct. Most of the seeds provide roughly twice the needed levels, many of the meals provide three times the needed levels...

So I don't see the necessity of support.

Based on what little I know, In theory, you are correct. In practice? Excess B3 is water soluable and excreted by the body - I'd be worried that if the IV dosage was even a little wrong, extra B3 would be flushed from the bloodstream back into the waste at the tail end of the chicken's digestive tract - so maybe the Amprolium is effective in the upper GI, but less effective in the lower GI???

So, maybe I had a few thoughts.

I could be overthinking it, and I really don't know. Also, MORE COFFEE!

Excellent post.
Thiamine absorption occurs in the chicken small intestine which is pretty damn relatively huge. That's the target zone of effect.
I might consider supps in areas of high cocci pressure in nonvaxxed chicks who get sick.
You make very good points about not using it purely as support

 

[Regina Larsen]

The Cocci vax needs two to three weeks to work so it needs to be given a couple of weeks before they are exposed to Cocci. In theory age doesn't matter. In practical terms that means day olds or real close.

Ty

 

[My Very First 6 Chickens]

I have no thoughts at all. I'm trying to make a layperson study of feeding chickens, and leaving illness/injury to others of greater expertise and experience.

That said, the abount of Niacin "blocked" by Amprolium, relative to the size of a chicken, is EXTREMELY small, which is why tiny doses of extra B3 as support in the feed so easily overwhelms the action of the Amprolium. Nor do short term B3 deficits have long term effects on the body - the damage is quickly repaired when B3 levels return to normal.

AND, chickens can take an excess of the amino acid tryptophan and convert it into Niacin if needed. While tryptophan doesn't appear on the guaranteed nutritional analysis of feed labels here int he US, the ingredients list does. As a partial list of ingredients which, pound per pound, well exceed the recommended Tryp levels for chickens, I offer:

Blood Meal, Fish Meal (crab, shrimp, etc), Soybean Meal, Soybeans, Sesame, Cottonseed meal, Brewers Yeast, Hemp Seed, Flax Seed, Peanut Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Worm Meal, Cowpeas, Rapeseed Meal...

You know what, its probably easier to mention the things that don't provide enough Tryp on their own. Oats, Soft Wheat, Barley, Triticale, Rye, Sorghum. some varieties of Millet- and all but the last three provide about 3/4 of the level recommended for chickens, so its a deficit relatively easy to correct. Most of the seeds provide roughly twice the needed levels, many of the meals provide three times the needed levels...

So I don't see the necessity of support.

Based on what little I know, In theory, you are correct. In practice? Excess B3 is water soluable and excreted by the body - I'd be worried that if the IV dosage was even a little wrong, extra B3 would be flushed from the bloodstream back into the waste at the tail end of the chicken's digestive tract - so maybe the Amprolium is effective in the upper GI, but less effective in the lower GI???

So, maybe I had a few thoughts.

I could be overthinking it, and I really don't know. Also, MORE COFFEE!

Ok, my takeaway is...... COFFEE!

 

[Regina Larsen]

Ok, my takeaway is...... COFFEE!

DAMN STRAIGHT !!!! ️

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Ok, my takeaway is...... COFFEE!

That is a MOST EXCELLENT takeaway. A very good morning to all. I've had a slice of quiche, two cups of coffee, its time to get off my ___ and get something accomplished today.

 

[Regina Larsen]

That is a MOST EXCELLENT takeaway. A very good morning to all. I've had a slice of quiche, two cups of coffee, its time to get off my ___ and get something accomplished today.

Lort yes ... ditto.

 

[Karianne]

I haven't used any medicated feed with my new flock. They are now 16 weeks I believe and doing well. I had them in a brooder in my basement until they were about 5 weeks old. I had previously read about gradual exposure to outside bacteria, so I threw in some sticks from the ground into their brooder once they were a few weeks old.

It did cross my mind the transition to the outside would be potentially a dangerous time, so I set up my chicken coop tractor + run on some infertile sandy, dry ground, lots of sand, rock and gravel that I had dumped there years before, with just a few patches of weeds and grass growing. I let the chicks stay here for a few weeks before I moved them onto the regular fertile ground. I thought it would be a potentially safer transition since a lot of my land is borderline swamp, damp rich soil, wooded, shaded, etc. which I know makes it a breeding ground for bacteria / cocci and whatever else. Zero sickness yet, so I will keep doing it this way.