Mille Cochin Info

[Blarneyeggs]

Ropo:. Thanks for the informative post complete with photos!

It's great to have an experienced show person share information. MrHeinz on the NYD Hatch Thread is so envious of the LF Langshan eggs from your line being set this Tuesday! I look forward to any other insights you share.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Thanks Blarney!

I didn't want to come off rude or pompous, but really felt as though this was information that should be shared. I really haven't been in the show arena that long compared to others in the fancy, but I have learned a few things. Why not "spread the manure" around and see what grows?

Needless to say, that cockerel was not around for long after that photo.



Poor Jim! I've gotten some very good hatches from those LF eggs this fall! Hopefully you will get hatches as good as I've gotten these past few months!

 

[mjgigax]

Thanks Blarney!

I didn't want to come off rude or pompous, but really felt as though this was information that should be shared. I really haven't been in the show arena that long compared to others in the fancy, but I have learned a few things. Why not "spread the manure" around and see what grows?

Needless to say, that cockerel was not around for long after that photo.

That is quite alright. Several experienced breeders have stressed before to select for type first and that color and pattern is nothing with out it.
This project is going to be a looooong one. I have noticed slow improvement in type in the three years I have followed this thread. This color sure will be beautiful on a SQ type bird.

 

[Fancy Feathers]

So you didn’t want to come off as rude or pompous, you just wanted to start some sh*t? (paraphrasing)

& didn’t you say earlier that you were going to cull these other 2 cockerels anyway?
I’ll tell you what’s a kick in the gut, though. A few months ago I donated a half dozen eggs to a game I play. The winner didn’t want Cochins so she gave the prize to someone who really wanted them. The deal was 6, I sent 10, she hatched 9. So, free eggs, great hatch, she’s still finding ways to be unhappy. We just had a short conversation about this, & I know you got her extra cockerels, so it’s hard for me to pretend this isn’t all about the birds that came from my eggs. I'm sorry if she's disappointed. (& if I'm wrong? Please accept my apology for being offended.)

While your issue may be with split wing (a split wing is a total absence of the feather and corresponding follicle between the primaries and secondaries) I was describing weak wings; loose, slipped or wings held too low. Without having the bird in your hands it's hard to tell which it is. (Slipped wings is when the secondary wing feathers don’t fold in correctly under the primaries. Weak wings are wings carried loosely, & may appear split, even having the gap in, but are not technically split wings.) & no, genereally those birds don’t stay in my breeding program. I’ve been with this project only since April. I don’t pretend to have perfect birds. My eyes are wide open and I can see that this is a daunting, challenging, long-term project. I have a lot of issues to work through – split breast, low wing set, crow heads, black in the beak, squirrel tail, not enough cushion.. & then there is the very difficult challenge of getting the correct color and pattern. I've never pretended that every bird raised out of this project should be bred. I’m also not breeding for eye candy only. I don’t think any of the breeders who are active on this thread are. We’re all doing our best and making the best choices we can. I think it’s more productive and in the best interest of the breed and variety to encourage each other and share. I love it when breeders we haven’t heard from in awhile post, even better if they include pictures. (Sometimes I wonder if people think I post too many pictures.. while I wish others would post more! ) I’m here to learn, along with the social aspects this thread provides.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

She was not unhappy with them and these may not be all your birds. It is possible she got eggs from someone else as well. Seems like she had more than 9 or these. I will post more in response to your post later. A lunch break is only so long!

There was no "diss" intended on your birds simply an illustration of what to look for as one goes along with this variety project. Some may not know of any of these faults and I felt as though, from a breeding standpoint for conformation, it would be a good idea to put these faults in the spotlight so that they could be culled against.

I know that if my Langshans were producing something undesirable, as a responsible breeder and exhibitor, I would like to know about any faults so that I could continue to progress my line towards the standard.

 

[mama2my4]

deleted

 

[Fancy Feathers]

Absolutely, we should talk about faults and all sorts of breeding issues. I've learned So much from reading and poring over pictures. That's what these forums are for! I guess it was just the choice of words and the timing of it all. I know tone can be misread on the screen too. A lot of times that happens to me

Sorry I overreacted.
It's a Monday kind of day, so far

 

[WestKnollAmy]

I agree, we do need to talk about the faults and what we all think we can do to breed these out, what may be genetic or not, how to improve our birds and what directions we feel are best for doing that.
I certainly want to learn more and every time you all bring something up I try to retain it and learn more and hope I can improve my birds and breeding program.
I would love for all of us to be friends but if not, at least maybe tolerate each other enough to share info and ideas.

I am sorry you are having a bad Monday, Nancy. I hope it gets better!

 

[mibirder]

(Hoping to not stir the pot. . . .)

While not an expert, by far, here are a few details about split wings from what I've encountered:

1. Split wings can result from injury, diet, and/or genetics.
2. It is most commonly believed to be an autosomal recessive (which is why it can crop up in closed flocks even after many years - if both parent carry "it", it can show up in youngsters down the road.)
3. Outbreeding with birds who are not carrying the ressive gene and proper selection based upon lineage can eliminate/greatly reduce its occurance. (One report took 8 generations with culling to effectively eliminate the occurance - a long time, but it can be done).
4. Details records are essential if its present in a closly related flock.
5. It can be related to the slow feathering K gene (common in cochins)
6. If caused by a dietry/management issue, birds can and do often molt out of it.
7. The issue can be in the primary feathers or the secondary feathers - there should be 10 of each on each side I think.
8. Judging split wings on chicks, young birds, recently molted, or molting birds is difficult. Best to wait until fully feathered with mature wing feathers.
9. split wings can be on one wing or both.
10. It can result from problems with wing structure (tendons and bones), feather follicles, or feather development.

I guess the best advice is to avoid it if at all possible if you don't have it, if you do keep detailed breeding records for many generations, breed from unrelated birds assumed to be clear of it, and consider outcrosses to help reduce it. Remember that even a pair of champion birds can produce split wing young if they are carriers of the gene!

Is it a defect? - Yes, (except for a few rare breeds) but it isnt the end of the world. Like all weaknesses it should be avoided, but it can be managed. As I'm not fan of heavy culling in place of good breeding, I would hesitate to maintain a closed flock with it. I would not be against outcrossing to control/reduce its occurance.

Dave

 

[County Boy]

(Deleted... I thought she was unhappy with her birds and upset at me about it. I really should have known better.)

While your issue may be with split wing (a split wing is a total absence of the feather and corresponding follicle between the primaries and secondaries) I was describing weak wings; loose, slipped or wings held too low. Without having the bird in your hands it's hard to tell which it is. (Slipped wings is when the secondary wing feathers don’t fold in correctly under the primaries. Weak wings are wings carried loosely, & may appear split, even having the gap in, but are not technically split wings.) & no, genereally those birds don’t stay in my breeding program. I’ve been with this project only since April. I don’t pretend to have perfect birds. My eyes are wide open and I can see that this is a daunting, challenging, long-term project. I have a lot of issues to work through – split breast, low wing set, crow heads, black in the beak, squirrel tail, not enough cushion.. & then there is the very difficult challenge of getting the correct color and pattern. I've never pretended that every bird raised out of this project should be bred. I’m also not breeding for eye candy only. I don’t think any of the breeders who are active on this thread are. We’re all doing our best and making the best choices we can. I think it’s more productive and in the best interest of the breed and variety to encourage each other and share. I love it when breeders we haven’t heard from in awhile post, even better if they include pictures. (Sometimes I wonder if people think I post too many pictures.. while I wish others would post more! ) I’m here to learn, along with the social aspects this thread provides.

I feel I post to many pics to but also wish others would share more. But without a lot of pics, how can we learn more. I agree that we really need to work on type. Some birds have decent type but if you look them over well enough you will find faults somewhere.