Miniature/bantam turkey?

[R2elk]

Yes, I did think she meant the midget whites.

I suppose one could start by crossing those with a colored heritage turkey. Whether you crossed back to the midget white or not would probably depend on your ultimate goals. I know nothing about midget whites, but if they enjoy better health and longevity than broad breasted turkeys, then they could have some traits you would want to keep in.

But I do think that breeding back to white would set your color goals backwards. In the end that might not matter, since it would be a multi generation task no matter how you go about it. I would buy the end product, just to try some. But I wouldn’t want to devote the pen space and years it would take to make them myself.

White in turkeys is a recessive gene. All F1 generation would carry a hidden recessive white gene.

Starting with a white bird also means you don't know what other color genes are being masked by the white genes in the first place.

 

[GCrumb]

@Finnie I know a little about midget whites, as I've been considering them. They naturally breed and have normal lifespans, or so the write-ups say.

My experience with rabbits and hamsters as a kid was that if you bred a wild-type/agouti one to a white one, you got all kinds of colours. Mostly because of what @R2elk says -- you don't know what's being masked by the white. This wouldn't really be a bad thing if variable colours was part of your goal. My casual look at the genetics makes me think this probably wouldn't happen, though, and you'd just get bronze, white and royal palm. Still not such a bad start.

In dogs it only takes six generations to breed 'back to type.' This is how merle has been introduced into breeds that didn't have it, like french bulldogs. Somebody bred one to a merle australian shepherd or sheltie and then bred the offpsring back to frenchies and selected to get dogs with all the frenchie characteristics but with the new coat colour. (Please don't do this, merle is a disease.) Could be done in less than ten years. Turkey generations being shorter and the differences in type less, I would guess it wouldn't take long and would be much quicker to introduce colours to the small variety than it would be to breed large varieties down to small, and would give you a more genetically healthy starting population.

 

[R2elk]

@Finnie I know a little about midget whites, as I've been considering them. They naturally breed and have normal lifespans, or so the write-ups say.

My experience with rabbits and hamsters as a kid was that if you bred a wild-type/agouti one to a white one, you got all kinds of colours. Mostly because of what @R2elk says -- you don't know what's being masked by the white. This wouldn't really be a bad thing if variable colours was part of your goal. My casual look at the genetics makes me think this probably wouldn't happen, though, and you'd just get bronze, white and royal palm. Still not such a bad start.

In dogs it only takes six generations to breed 'back to type.' This is how merle has been introduced into breeds that didn't have it, like french bulldogs. Somebody bred one to a merle australian shepherd or sheltie and then bred the offpsring back to frenchies and selected to get dogs with all the frenchie characteristics but with the new coat colour. (Please don't do this, merle is a disease.) Could be done in less than ten years. Turkey generations being shorter and the differences in type less, I would guess it wouldn't take long and would be much quicker to introduce colours to the small variety than it would be to breed large varieties down to small, and would give you a more genetically healthy starting population.

The hardest part is keeping them small. I honestly don't think there is enough interest in a small turkey to make it worthwhile.

The people I know want bigger turkeys that can naturally breed, not smaller ones. There are far more people that want turkeys for eating than for any other reason.

 

[GCrumb]

The hardest part is keeping them small. I honestly don't think there is enough interest in a small turkey to make it worthwhile.

The people I know want bigger turkeys that can naturally breed, not smaller ones. There are far more people that want turkeys for eating than for any other reason.

Yeah, I wonder how much effort midget white breeders are having to put in to keep them small.

I know that commercially, big turkeys are wanted. But most of the people I know do want a smaller holiday roast.

We raised a few turkeys when I was growing up, but only three or four at a time. Is a group of free-ranging domestic turkeys out in a big yard as amusing to watch as groups of wild turkeys? But without vanishing? Sounds fun to have around. Not sure about marketable, but something on the level of Oregon Mini Geese.

 

[R2elk]

Yeah, I wonder how much effort midget white breeders are having to put in to keep them small.

Lots. The typical ones being sold by the hatcheries mature bigger than the stated standard.

I know that commercially, big turkeys are wanted. But most of the people I know do want a smaller holiday roast.

Which is easily satisfied by the current heritage varieties or by processing the BB varieties at a younger age. People don't want a chicken sized carcass from a turkey. The OP's desire for a bantam turkey is for a pet. Raising turkeys for pets is commercially infeasible due to Federal pet laws regarding pets that are not bought locally.

 

[Finnie]

White in turkeys is a recessive gene. All F1 generation would carry a hidden recessive white gene.

Starting with a white bird also means you don't know what other color genes are being masked by the white genes in the first place.

Yes, and not only that, but with the recessive white gene floating around, if you breed back to white, you have “wastage” in 50% of the offspring that you’re trying to develop a certain color with when the two recessives pair up.

 

[SarahGfa]

White in turkeys is a recessive gene. All F1 generation would carry a hidden recessive white gene.

Starting with a white bird also means you don't know what other color genes are being masked by the white genes in the first place.

How does the Osceola (florida wild turkey) compare with midget white, size-wize? i have not seen either one in person, but the internet says they are about the same weight. If you start with a mini bronze bird, then after a couple generations you could have different colors of bantam turkeys. Am I on the right track?

 

[GCrumb]

If you start with a mini bronze bird, then after a couple generations you could have different colors of bantam turkeys. Am I on the right track?

As I understand it, not really -- the colours are mutations, and while the same ones might happen more than once you can't really count on it.

If I had run space I might be really keen to make a little project of it. I'd get some midget whites and eat all but the smallest tom or two, and then get the bundle of assorted colour-crosses from Porter's or somebody similar and use all different colour hens, breed the smaller not-white hens from the cross back to small midget white toms and so on until they were the right size, and see what happens with the colours.

But I'd like them to be a bunch of different colours in the same flock. And wouldn't really mind that white ones would turn up a quarter of the time even if I eat all the white ones every year, unless I did test-breedings to cull white carriers, which would eliminate some colour possibilities anyway.

Even boring old white would be useful for grasshopper control and not decimate the garden like chickens or trample it to death like big turkeys.

 

[Amer]

I have always wanted to create a bantam type of turkey but colored. Someday when I have the space for the project, I will try to breed them. I would probably also put emphasis on a nicely-rounded breast and a large head and eyes for cuteness. (I have always found turkeys to be cute, especially with their huge eyes.)
I have always been a fan of bantams (I breed Belgian Bearded d’Anvers for show) but I love the personality of turkeys and think they make great pets but they are so huge!


Here is the European Colli Euganei turkey. Not all of them have yellow skin, but many do, which is sadly not found in the US. https://www.agraria.org/tacchini/collieuganei.htm

 

[GCrumb]

@Amer I love them.

Also, yeah. I'd want to use the Midget Whites not only for size but for that cute round fatbirb look. (They're also supposed to be very friendly, and to lay larger eggs than other turkey varieties, also positives.)

I totally want a strain of mini-turkey where all or nearly all possible colours are in the population.

If a handful of bakyarders each made it a one-coop project and then swapped some birds back and forth we might be able to do a pretty good job...