Mixed sizes? Small Flock Advice

[SpazzDaUni]

Hello everyone!

Our small flock is getting so grown up, and we need help making sure everyone is happy. We have a 36 SQ foot coop (a 6H * 6W *6L shed) and a small TSC coop (9 SQ ft). The TSC coop has a 12 SQ ft run attached, and the other coop has a 208 SQ ft run attached. Our problem is with the fact that most of our flock is almost at laying/mating age, and I'm worried about the mixes we have going on. So we have currently four 17 week old OEGB bantam pullets, one 16 week old Blue Sex Link Easter Egger bantam pullet, one 15 week old Buff Brahma bantam cockerel, and four 2 to 3 week old pullets from TSC (EE standard size according to TSC). However, the Buff Brahma bantam cockerel is kind of...massive? He look like a giant compared to my OEGB bantams. So we got the four TSC chicks in hopes that he'd have some girlfriends more his size. But we can't tell if he's a bantam or Meyer's accidentally sent us a standard size? How can I tell? He's almost 2 ft tall when he crows, but his body mass is only mildly bigger than my EE bantam girls. Regardless of his size, should the bantam OEGBs be removed? I tried to separate them earlier, and you'd have thought I started WW3. He started screaming, they started screaming, my EE ignored their crazy booties, and when I finally gave up my OEGB girls ran STRAIGHT back to him. I'm afraid he'll hurt them by accident if they mate, but I also know they're a very close group (except my EE cause she's a savage). And then I started wondering that if he's actually a bantam, will introducing the TSC standard size pullets when grown might throw off the dynamic? My chickens are my loves and I want them all happy. If there's a way all 10 can co-exist, that would be ideal. I'm willing to buy saddles, trim nails (is that a thing?), etc. I'm sorry I sound crazy.
Any help is appreciated.

Photos because they're all so cute. It's really hard to accurately show the size difference with a camera.

 

[Mrs. K]

one 15 week old Buff Brahma bantam cockerel,

If you have a darling child in your picture, I would be very leary of having a rooster. Roosters tend to attack children first, and children under that age of 6 will take the attack in the face. Often times inexperienced people will say the attack came out of no where.

As darling as the rooster is now, he may not always be that way. And if you could move him out of your flock, the rest of your flock problems would be gone.

Most inexperienced people vastly underestimate the violence of an aggressive rooster.

I just keep full size birds, some people have had good luck mixing bantams with full size birds, but some people do not. A lot depends on the shape and style of your set up and overall space.

I would be leary of the rooster, and none of your birds are quite to the laying age, and many are several months from laying. A cockerel which is what you have at this point will want to become sexually active long before the pullets will. For the most part, a mature rooster will leave pullets alone, but not a cockerel, just too much hormones.

So you might need to split the 17 week old birds off with him, and hope for the best. But you need a plan B set up and ready to go if the roosterchick does not work out with either you or the hens.

Remember with cockerels, their behavior today, is NO INDICATION how they will act tomorrow. They are largely controlled by hormones. As AArt says, roosters are where the romance of keeping chickens meets reality. And it is often not pretty.

Mrs K

 

[SpazzDaUni]

If you have a darling child in your picture, I would be very leary of having a rooster. Roosters tend to attack children first, and children under that age of 6 will take the attack in the face. Often times inexperienced people will say the attack came out of no where.

As darling as the rooster is now, he may not always be that way. And if you could move him out of your flock, the rest of your flock problems would be gone.

Most inexperienced people vastly underestimate the violence of an aggressive rooster.

I just keep full size birds, some people have had good luck mixing bantams with full size birds, but some people do not. A lot depends on the shape and style of your set up and overall space.

I would be leary of the rooster, and none of your birds are quite to the laying age, and many are several months from laying. A cockerel which is what you have at this point will want to become sexually active long before the pullets will. For the most part, a mature rooster will leave pullets alone, but not a cockerel, just too much hormones.

So you might need to split the 17 week old birds off with him, and hope for the best. But you need a plan B set up and ready to go if the roosterchick does not work out with either you or the hens.

Remember with cockerels, their behavior today, is NO INDICATION how they will act tomorrow. They are largely controlled by hormones. As AArt says, roosters are where the romance of keeping chickens meets reality. And it is often not pretty.

Mrs K

I mean this in the kindest way, but I did not ask for opinions on roosters or my ability to parent and protect my children. I asked for help with determining if my brahma bantam is actually a bantam, and if he could hurt my OEGBs since they're some of the SMALLEST bantams. I want to maintain the safety of ALL animals and people. My children have NO access to my chickens, period. The only access the have is to stand near the chicken area for pictures or to plant flowers for them when they're in the coop. My fear of the chickens hurting them is small compared to my children hurting them. They're only 5 and 3 years old. It would be insane for me to let them willy-nilly interact. Children do not understand the concept of fear, territory, mating behavior, etc in animals, so I'm not going to put my children or my animals in danger. We keep rescue animals, some who were up for euthanasia for aggression. I may be inexperienced, but I'm not incompetent.

I am also NOT going to rid myself of my cockerel. The treatment of male birds is, in my opinion, atrocious. I do not believe in rehoming, culling, etc. Period. I knew I could get a male when I bought chickens. It is something that months of research told me. I am okay with accepting the fact that I may have to adjust living arrangements, etc for the safety of my birds, but I will not get rid of him. I accepted responsibility for him, and therefore I will give him his best life. Hence why I have TWO coops and TWO runs. My plan B.

Laying age can start as early as 18+ weeks according to my research, which mean that my 5 pullets at 16 and 17 weeks are almost there. My TSC chicks are still indoors in their brooder. They will not be introduced anytime soon. But considering time seems to pass quickly, I like to have a plan ready.

I did not get chickens for some "romantic" image of them. So having a cockerel doesn't cause any "reality" to set in. They're birds. They smell, are prone to many diseases and infestations, and require care to prevent predation. They cost a lot more to keep than to just buy eggs. I did not buy them cause they were cute, for fun, or any other superficial reason. I bought them because I wanted them. I wanted to have eggs for my baking, for companionship, for the experience, etc. Animals, no matter the variety are in our care, and they aren't short lived. I am making a commitment to MANY years and dollars, so it's not something I take lightly. Sorry if my laughing made you believe otherwise. Sometimes, I just try to make light of life so it isn't so soul crushing, right?

Regardless, I will watch out EXTRA careful of my cockerel, thank you.

 

[Ridgerunner]

help with determining if my brahma bantam is actually a bantam, and if he could hurt my OEGBs since they're some of the SMALLEST bantams.

Can you weigh him? A full grown bantam rooster is supposed to weigh about 38 oz. A 15 week old full sized fowl Brahma cockerel should weight a lot more. Maybe wrap a towel around his wings and put him in a bucket to weight him, then weight the bucket and towel to get the difference.

OEGB bantam hens should weigh about 22 ounces when grown. When they mate the hen squats. That gets the rooster's weight into the ground through her entire body, not just her legs. Roosters are typically heavier than hens of the same breeds, let alone differences between breeds. The squat is nature's way of protecting the hens. Lots of people have full sized roosters in flocks with bantam hens, usually without problems because of the size.

But you don't get guarantees with living animals. Sometimes there are problems just due to technique or other behaviors. The more difference in size the more likely you are to have an issue. A full sized Brahma is about as big as you are going to get. If he really is full sized I'd be worried. If he is a bantam, not really.

his body mass is only mildly bigger than my EE bantam girls.

To me that says he is a bantam. He is supposed to be bigger.

will introducing the TSC standard size pullets when grown might throw off the dynamic?

Each chicken has its own personality, each flock has its own dynamics. When you add or subtract a chicken, especially a more dominant one, flock dynamics can change. Typically when they go through puberty a mix of cockerel and pullets can get pretty wild. It doesn't always but it can. I'll repeat, each chicken has its own personality and you don't get guarantees with living animals. Things tend to really calm down when they all mature but it can be challenging to get to that point.

I don't know what your flock dynamics will be like before you add those four pullets, either during puberty or after maturity. I don't know how those dynamics will change as you integrate those four pullets and after they mature. Only time will tell. Plenty of people have flocks with mixed bantam and full sized chickens without issues. People have flocks that are all bantam or all full sized and have issues, even if they are all the same breed.

will introducing the TSC standard size pullets when grown might throw off the dynamic?

What are your plans for integrating the chicks? Many of us find it easier to do the actual integration when they are pretty young. My definition of a successful integration is that no one gets hurt. It's that simple. I don't worry about them sleeping on roosts together or sitting around a campfire eating S'mores and getting all cuddly. That kind of buddy buddy can come later when they mature.

Until my younger ones mature enough to join the pecking order they tend to form a sub-flock, avoiding the mature birds day and night, but not being attacked. When they do mature enough to join the pecking order it's usually a non-event. There might be a skirmish or two but usually not.

There are different techniques to integrate them. Each flock has its own dynamics and you don't get guarantees with behaviors of living animals but with two coops and two runs you may be in a real good position to start that integration fairly soon. Photos of your coops and runs (instead of the chickens) and how they tie together might help us make suggestions of which techniques and how to set it up that might work for you.

 

[Mrs. K]

My apologies, many times when people do come here with a very young flock, they are inexperienced, and vastly underestimate the violence of a rooster. When I saw the child in your picture, I wanted to make sure that you understood that the darling can become the nightmare especially with a child.

Roosters have ruined the whole chicken experience for many people, especially children. I would not want that for any child, not due to incompetence, but rather due to inexperience.

I wish you the best of luck with your rooster. He is your rooster, keep him as you want.

Mrs K

 

[SpazzDaUni]

Can you weigh him? A full grown bantam rooster is supposed to weigh about 38 oz. A 15 week old full sized fowl Brahma cockerel should weight a lot more. Maybe wrap a towel around his wings and put him in a bucket to weight him, then weight the bucket and towel to get the difference.

OEGB bantam hens should weigh about 22 ounces when grown. When they mate the hen squats. That gets the rooster's weight into the ground through her entire body, not just her legs. Roosters are typically heavier than hens of the same breeds, let alone differences between breeds. The squat is nature's way of protecting the hens. Lots of people have full sized roosters in flocks with bantam hens, usually without problems because of the size.

But you don't get guarantees with living animals. Sometimes there are problems just due to technique or other behaviors. The more difference in size the more likely you are to have an issue. A full sized Brahma is about as big as you are going to get. If he really is full sized I'd be worried. If he is a bantam, not really.


To me that says he is a bantam. He is supposed to be bigger.


Each chicken has its own personality, each flock has its own dynamics. When you add or subtract a chicken, especially a more dominant one, flock dynamics can change. Typically when they go through puberty a mix of cockerel and pullets can get pretty wild. It doesn't always but it can. I'll repeat, each chicken has its own personality and you don't get guarantees with living animals. Things tend to really calm down when they all mature but it can be challenging to get to that point.

I don't know what your flock dynamics will be like before you add those four pullets, either during puberty or after maturity. I don't know how those dynamics will change as you integrate those four pullets and after they mature. Only time will tell. Plenty of people have flocks with mixed bantam and full sized chickens without issues. People have flocks that are all bantam or all full sized and have issues, even if they are all the same breed.


What are your plans for integrating the chicks? Many of us find it easier to do the actual integration when they are pretty young. My definition of a successful integration is that no one gets hurt. It's that simple. I don't worry about them sleeping on roosts together or sitting around a campfire eating S'mores and getting all cuddly. That kind of buddy buddy can come later when they mature.

Until my younger ones mature enough to join the pecking order they tend to form a sub-flock, avoiding the mature birds day and night, but not being attacked. When they do mature enough to join the pecking order it's usually a non-event. There might be a skirmish or two but usually not.

There are different techniques to integrate them. Each flock has its own dynamics and you don't get guarantees with behaviors of living animals but with two coops and two runs you may be in a real good position to start that integration fairly soon. Photos of your coops and runs (instead of the chickens) and how they tie together might help us make suggestions of which techniques and how to set it up that might work for you.

I was able to weigh him today and I'm positive he's a bantam now. I held him, and weighed us both, then weighed myself and subtracted the difference. Not 100 percent accurate since I used a human scale, but it was only about 2 lbs off. He's just a lot of feathers. Thank you so very much!

I'm not home to add a lot of pictures, but the best way to explain would be this: The shed (6 by 6 foot) is attached to the large covered run (208 square feet), and the TSC coop/run is INSIDE the large run. Our large run is NOT 100 percent predator proof, but the TSC coop/run is. Our plan was to put the 4 pullets from the brooder into the TSC around 4 weeks old when I know they can handle the temperature jumps a bit better. It's warm here, mid 90s in the day, but nights gets into the low 70s, so I wanted some better feathering first. Additionally, August is the hottest month here and the warm will last past Halloween. Though, the TSC coop has electricity ran to it, so I could actually put them outside immediately with their brooder plate and they would be okay. I figured with them safely enclosed inside the big kids run, they could interact but stay safe. Then when they're roughly the same size as my bantam EE, I figured supervised playtime for a week or so, then sneak them into the big kid coop one night. My EE bantam is the alpha female at this time though, so I'm gauging everything off of her. Thankfully she's super chill. My little emo girl. I also have a dog kennel as well I can use, but I try to keep that available in case, as Mrs.K mentioned, I have issues with Tide, my cockerel. And we'll be keeping the TSC coop indefinitely as a plan B coop/run for any problems, etc.

Here's a few older pictures to kind of describe it roughly. The shed is attached on the right side of the run, but I don't have a picture of it yet since we just finished it recently.

 

[RooStar Chicken Gang]

I don't really know much bout having bantams in with the flock cus never had any. But you know I have a mixed flock yeah. Australorp X new Hampshire, Isa brown, Barnevelder and recently some Leghorn X new Hampshire and one other grey chook who I dunno what breed she is exactly. Anyway the leghorn x's where very small when I first got em so had em in a cage area while others free roam till they got bigger took about two three months the person who gave em to me lied about there age.

So anyway what I'm Tryna say is this was the longest integration period IV ever had for chooks normally it's three days max then let em all meet each other and sort there stuff out but this time because it took so long and because they had been seeing each other through the wire for so long.. when I have now finally let them out basically no squabbles, only little bit of pecking here n there.. but there all good. So just try something like that.

 

[SpazzDaUni]

My apologies, many times when people do come here with a very young flock, they are inexperienced, and vastly underestimate the violence of a rooster. When I saw the child in your picture, I wanted to make sure that you understood that the darling can become the nightmare especially with a child.

Roosters have ruined the whole chicken experience for many people, especially children. I would not want that for any child, not due to incompetence, but rather due to inexperience.

I wish you the best of luck with your rooster. He is your rooster, keep him as you want.

Mrs K

It's all good. You're not wrong, I AM inexperienced, but I ALSO participated in agricultural clubs in high school and have seen first-hand rooster attacks at meets. I'm not from TN, where I live now, and as a city girl I tried to learn as much as possible about the rural area I had moved to. Inexperienced doesn't necessarily mean uneducated, though I understand your desire to share and prevent misfortune. I do promise I am aware and will do all I can to be watchful and protect both humans and animals involved.

My apologies for being reactionary. We rescue animals, and most are aggressive. People often come up to me and try to say that I don't know, give me advice, share why I'm wrong, or ask what about my kids, etc, so I've become defensive as a result. My husband and I have both been bitten (my most resent rescue a 90 pound dog bite my husband and resulted in 16 stitches in the hand) and attacked by most of our animals. It's kind of par for course with animals that have been chained, shot, thrown, tortured, poisoned, and abandoned. We have made our kids safety a priority and are comfortable with our security measures to prevent interaction with certain animals, but if you didn't know us, you wouldn't know that we were in fact prepared. But seriously, I'm sorry for getting upset. My apologies, Mrs. K.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Then when they're roughly the same size as my bantam EE, I figured supervised playtime for a week or so, then sneak them into the big kid coop one night.

This is where I'd change your plans. After supervised playtime I'd let them prove to me that they can get along in the run unsupervised for a couple of weeks before I tried locking them in the main coop at night with the others. Let them sleep separately for a while longer.

Your coop meets the requirements for square feet many people on this forum use for fully integrated chickens, but integration often takes more. There just isn't a lot of room in there for one to get away from another if it needs to. From your background I don't think you will have big problems being patient.

The morning after you lock them all in together at night, I'd be down there at the crack of dawn when they wake up to see how it is going, just in case. With mine that's usually just one or two mornings.

 

[Mrs. K]

I think you have a very nice set up. And two coops are a sweet option to have.

What I would recommend (a focus of mine) is to add more clutter to your run. Pallets leaned against a wall, up on blocks so that birds can get under and on top. A roost in the run, chairs, ladders, boxes, mini walls of plywood, and maybe a wind shelter in the run will make it much more interesting to your chicken, give them much more exercise, and makes much more use of the vertical space.

If you look, you will realize that your chickens can see every other chicken 100% of the time. They have no way to step out of sight, to get away from each other. Especially in confined runs, especially while integrating new birds, the ability to get away, and disappear will allow your birds to get along much better.

Personally at those temperatures your chicks do not need extra heat, and could easily go outside, unless you want them inside for your own enjoyment.

Good luck,

Mrs K