MJ's little flock

[Grammy60]

Good evening MJ and everyone

Good thanks! Very cheerful.

Yourself?

I'm hanging in there with my pain medicine and trying to keep my arm still. Hopefully, I can start moving it soon but don't go back to the doctor until next week. I hope to get a smaller bandage at that visit.

I'm so happy your enjoying your time off

 

[BY Bob]

I think the hens are starting to appreciate the benefits of the back porch. Nice cool air flow from the aircon, icy water, noms. What more could they ask for?

View attachment 2497424

I suppose a nest box in the corner wouldn't be too much to ask for

A nest box is surely the next step. Might as well have the tradies whip one up before they go.

 

[BY Bob]

I had to stop playing poker with Treacle. He kept beating me and it got depressing.

I imagine he is a great bluffer.

 

[BY Bob]

Her colouring. Not to mention the disgruntled look on her face.

Ok. I see it now!

 

[micstrachan]

I think some of the more physical characteristics might be determined by breed, but even then you get the oddballs.
What I don't believe has anything to do with breed is personality.
If it were true, then it seems reasonable that it would apply to all species and that includes us. It doesn't though.
The other thing that should make one doubt the breeds personality stuff is right here on BYC.
Set up a poll on which chicken breed was the most friendly for example and get enough responses and it looks more like a coin toss.
It's a bit like the dangerous dog by breed debate. Once a particular view gets established then people buy that breed and train it to be dangerous and the myth rolls on.
Treat the dangerous dog in another way and you are likely to get a different dog personality wise.
It doesn't make any sense for a chicken to be any different to any other animal in this respect and there is no evidence to support such views.
Getting a similar size; yes, lots of evidence that this works.
Getting chickens that look similar; yes, lots of evidence for this as well.
Some chickens are better at evading predators then others; evidence for this to.
Some make better foragers, yup, evidence for that.
One breed is inhernetly nicer than another; zero evidence and lots of anecdotal stuff that shows the opposite.

Shad, this is interesting. I only have a couple repeat breeds, and I do see some similarities in their personalities. For example, both Buckeyes, which are two years apart in age, chase the dog. I don’t see anyone else doing that besides them and now the babies (pullets) are doing it. Both Buckeyes are also being a bit more mean to those they outrank than the others. However, this is relatively new behavior. (Some mid “behavior” issues are starting up and I think their space is maxed out.) Dorothy is my second (mostly) Leghorn and Flash has some Leghorn, too. I do see personality similarities here, too. They are more assertive and move quicker than the others. Having said that, Bridge and Ester (Barred Rocks) so far are quite different from each other. They were also raised differently from each other. What do you think about the Buckeyes and Leghorns? Coincidence?

 

[micstrachan]

Do you want to be told or would you prefer to find your answer as you read?

I’ll keep reading what I can, but yes, please tel me.

 

[BY Bob]

Shad, this is interesting. I only have a couple repeat breeds, and I do see some similarities in their personalities. For example, both Buckeyes, which are two years apart in age, chase the dog. I don’t see anyone else doing that besides them and now the babies (pullets) are doing it. Both Buckeyes are also being a bit more mean to those they outrank than the others. However, this is relatively new behavior. (Some mid “behavior” issues are starting up and I think their space is maxed out.) Dorothy is my second (mostly) Leghorn and Flash has some Leghorn, too. I do see personality similarities here, too. They are more assertive and move quicker than the others. Having said that, Bridge and Ester (Barred Rocks) so far are quite different from each other. They were also raised differently from each other. What do you think about the Buckeyes and Leghorns? Coincidence?

First let me say I love this discussion. Thanks for bringing it up again.

I think the "quicker" you are seeing in the leghorns would be a direct result of their build. They are physically designed to be small and quick. I would advise that when evaluating the chicken and having personality discussions that we keep physical characteristics separate from personalities. While they may play a role in developing personality traits they are not personality traits.

While we have a lot of examples here of assertive leghorns (I see you there Tsuki ), I have read of many instances where they are anything but assertive. Instead they are rather skittish and frightened.

 

[Shadrach]

Shad, this is interesting. I only have a couple repeat breeds, and I do see some similarities in their personalities. For example, both Buckeyes, which are two years apart in age, chase the dog. I don’t see anyone else doing that besides them and now the babies (pullets) are doing it. Both Buckeyes are also being a bit more mean to those they outrank than the others. However, this is relatively new behavior. (Some mid “behavior” issues are starting up and I think their space is maxed out.) Dorothy is my second (mostly) Leghorn and Flash has some Leghorn, too. I do see personality similarities here, too. They are more assertive and move quicker than the others. Having said that, Bridge and Ester (Barred Rocks) so far are quite different from each other. They were also raised differently from each other. What do you think about the Buckeyes and Leghorns? Coincidence?

I don’t know. I believe a number of things but that doesn’t make them true.

Behavioural science is a particularly difficult area, particularly when it comes to what is ‘natural’ and what is driven by the conditions of the experiment or the observations.

I’ve written this a few times on BYC now but it bears repeating. In order to study chickens behaviour one needs to let the chickens behave. This sounds obvious, but at what point can one say this is natural behaviour in a particular set of circumstances.

In order to set up a vilid study one would need to establish an environment that doesn’t change unnaturally for a period of time and watch how the chickens respond to it and behave within it.

If these chickens were at some point confined, or come from hatcheries, or from eggs hatched in an incubator then it’s difficult to state you are observing natural behaviour. You really need consecutive generations, naturally hatched which are raised by a mother hen and join an established group. Even with the chickens here there are still many human influence variables but their lives are reasonably close to domestic breeds gone feral in enough respects for me to say with a reasonable level of certainty that this is what they do ‘naturally’.

There have been quite a few laborotory experiemetns concerning chicken behaviour and the better studies are very specific about the conditions under which the study was conducted. Unfortunately, the media and much of the public are not well educated in science and the conclusions are often quoted as fact without regard to the experiment parameters.

One such study was to determine what hens find most attractive in roosters. The hens were confined in a room and presented with roosters with various comb sizes. Conclusions were drawn from the mating activity.

I’m 100% confident that if such a study was carried out in a different set of circumstances then there would be a different outcome. So, the conditions of the experiment or study have a major impact on the outcome. This gets overlooked more often then not. What good science should state is under these strict controls this is what we observed. Take away those controls and you are likely to get a different result.

To state with any degree of certainty one needs not just a wide range of variables but also a high level of repeatability. This is easy enough to do with non living material so physics and mathematics can produce the repeatability necessary for a high degree of certainty.

To achieve even a moderate level of certainty in behavioural patterns one needs thousands of studies or reports. So far, as I mention in the post you’ve quoted, the best we have is the anecdotal evidence of those who post here on BYC. You can search the posts if you like and do the maths, but I’m pretty sure you will end up without any statistical evidence one way or another.

If and when a combination of genes are discovered that determine behaviour no matter what the environment I would say you have a machine.

 

[micstrachan]

First let me say I love this discussion. Thanks for bringing it up again.

I think the "quicker" you are seeing in the leghorns would be a direct result of their build. They are physically designed to be small and quick. I would advise that when evaluating the chicken and having personality discussions that we keep physical characteristics separate from personalities. While they may play a role in developing personality traits they are not personality traits.

While we have a lot of examples here of assertive leghorns (I see you there Tsuki ), I have read of many instances where they are anything but assertive. Instead they are rather skittish and frightened.

Thanks for your suggestion, Bob. I am not lumping physical attributes with personality, but one may influence the other, as you mentioned. Yes, obviously I know Leghorns have a smaller, lighter build and have the physical ability to move more quickly. Yes, it is anecdotal that my three are especially assertive in their cohorts. With a degree in Biology and 10-year career in biotech, it is in my nature to notice possible connections, but I have not drawn any conclusions.

As I sure you know, it is well established that genetics play a role in personality in humans. I believe it is reasonable to postulate the same might hold true with chickens. Looking forward to more on this discussion.

 

[MaryJanet]

I’ll keep reading what I can, but yes, please tel me.

It's the new chicken run I've been thinking of for a year or so. Some of the ideas for it are on this (now inactive) thread.