Mottled Muffed Feathered Leg Dark Brown Layer Project Questions

[HollowOfWisps]

This is purely just for fun, but I am attempting a mottled dark egg layer project. I am going for feathered legs, beard, muff as well basically something similar in appearance to a D’ Uccle, but larger and lays dark brown eggs. I started with my first cross of a Salmon Faverolle rooster and a Blue Copper Maran hen. I got blue birchen and gold shouldered rooster. I then crossed my Faverole x Maran rooster with a Mille Fleur D’Uccle and got this guy. Obviously nothing is clean looking with him, but my question is am I even on the right track? Should I do the same cross for more like this one and then breed the siblings together to try to clean the color out a bit? Then add in more Maran genetics later? Should I just cross this one with a Maran (what color?) to add in more brown layer genetics? Would you just go a different direction completely?

 

[Debbie292d]

I'm not sure who all of our experimental breeders are that would know the answer to this. I get flustered just trying to figure out the different silkie varieties.

Have you ever tried this link? I don't use it myself but I see a lot of others play around on it. There's a page you can get to where you put in your birds you wish to breed.
https://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html

 

[SourRoses]

What base do you want for the Mottling?
Black?
If you do want a base color that's not leaky, you probably want to avoid back crossing later, instead do it sooner.

 

[NatJ]

When your title says "mottled," do you mean specifically black with white dots? Or do you mean any color with the mottling gene?

Should I do the same cross for more like this one and then breed the siblings together to try to clean the color out a bit? Then add in more Maran genetics later? Should I just cross this one with a Maran (what color?) to add in more brown layer genetics? Would you just go a different direction completely?

Any of those could be useful. You will definitely need more crosses with Marans at some point to get more of the genes for dark brown eggs.

This is purely just for fun, but I am attempting a mottled dark egg layer project. I am going for feathered legs, beard, muff as well basically something similar in appearance to a D’ Uccle, but larger and lays dark brown eggs. I started with my first cross of a Salmon Faverolle rooster and a Blue Copper Maran hen. I got blue birchen and gold shouldered rooster. I then crossed my Faverole x Maran rooster with a Mille Fleur D’Uccle and got this guy. Obviously nothing is clean looking with him, but my question is am I even on the right track? Should I do the same cross for more like this one and then breed the siblings together to try to clean the color out a bit? Then add in more Maran genetics later? Should I just cross this one with a Maran (what color?) to add in more brown layer genetics? Would you just go a different direction completely?

If Marans have the right size and dark brown eggs, and d'Uccle have the other traits you want, then I don't see why you have Faverolle in the mix at all

If you want to work with the cockerel you have now, maybe breed him back to d'Uccle. Otherwise just start with Marans x d'Uccle.

From there, I would probably follow a two generation breeding plan:

--breed a mottled bird to a Marans. The first "mottled bird" will be a d'Uccle, but later it will be a bird from your own breeding. All of the chicks will carry mottling but none will show it. Choose one or more cockerels that have as many d'Uccle traits as you can get (muffs, feathered feet, etc), and if there is variation in size you want to keep the biggest ones.

--breed cockerels (previous paragraph) to a mottled bird (d'Uccle the first time, but later this will be a bird you have bred.) About half of chicks will show mottling. Among the mottled pullets, pick ones that have all the other d'Uccle traits (muffs, feathered feet, etc). Try to pick big ones if you can, but the other traits are more important than the size in this generation. Then raise up those pullets and see what color eggs they lay. Choose the ones who lay the darkest brown eggs, and use them as the "mottled" birds in your next generation (breed these mottled birds to Marans, then a son back to them, then pick pullets from that to breed back to Marans again...)

The reason I suggest this:
Each cross to Marans will give the genes for large size and dark eggs. Each cross back to a mottled bird will give some birds that show mottling (recessive gene), so you can be sure you don't lose that trait. You can see what color eggs pullets lay which is why you pick dark-laying pullets in that generation. You cannot see what color eggs a cockerel will lay, but if he had a Marans parent you can trust that he has at least some genes for dark eggs, which he will give to at least some of his daughters (and you need to keep a cockerel not a pullet in that generation, because you will be breeding back to his mother and her sisters-- who are obviously female).

Or if you think Faverolles have all the traits you want (except mottling and egg color), maybe cross Faverolles with a larger mottled breed (like Ancona or Speckled Sussex), then backcross to the mottled breed to get some that show mottling as well as the muffs and feathered feet. Use those chicks as the "mottled" birds for crossing with Marans to get dark eggs. (Or you could crossing your current cockerel to a mottled hen of some large breed, pick some mottled chicks with the right other traits, and go from there.)

-----------------
Alternative breeding strategy:
Start with a d'Uccle/Marans mix or with your current cockerel, and breed back to Marans. Half of chicks will carry mottling but not show it, half will not even carry it. Choose chicks that show all the other d'Uccle traits you want (muffs, feathered feet, etc), and test-mate them with a d'Uccle to learn which ones carry mottling. Take one that carries mottling and breed back to Marans again. Repeat for as many generations as it takes, then breed some of them to each other to get about 25% chicks that show mottling.

This works by crossing repeatedly to Marans to get the dark eggs and large size faster, and you can see muffs & feathered feet so it is easy to be sure you have those genes, but you will probably lose the mottling gene unless you test-mate each bird to be sure it carries mottling before you use that bird to cross to Marans.

If you can hatch chicks only once a year, having to test-mate birds will make this the slower strategy. But if you can do a test-hatch and then the actual mating within the same year, this strategy will probably end up with the right results faster. Raising more than one generation per year will also speed things up. Using males of your mixes, bred with Marans hens, will be faster than using Marans roosters with mixed pullets. (Partly because cockerels can be siring chicks before their sisters start laying, partly because females can retain sperm for a while after a mating so after test-mating a pullet you would need to wait before hatching eggs from her with a different rooster.) But of course you will need to raise females at some point to check on the egg color, and to breed with the males to get a pure-breeding line of birds.

I don't know how much you are in a hurry (one generation per year vs. more), and which traits you want to see fastest in your project birds (first strategy will have you working with more birds that show mottling, second will have you working with more birds that produce dark brown eggs). I described two different breeding plans, but you can also bounce back and forth. A bird that carries mottling (because one parent shows mottling or because you test-mated it to tell) can be bred back to a mottled bird to produce some chicks with mottling, or it can be bred to a Marans to produce some chicks that carry mottling and some that do not (but you can tell which is which by test mating them.)

Any method will produce many chicks that are "culls," meaning you do not want to breed from them on this project. If you do not already know what you want to do with the culls, I suggest you think about it before you hatch very manymore chicks. You might be able to sell some to other people, keep some females as layers, butcher males and extra females even if they are small, etc.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

When your title says "mottled," do you mean specifically black with white dots? Or do you mean any color with the mottling gene?



Any of those could be useful. You will definitely need more crosses with Marans at some point to get more of the genes for dark brown eggs.


If Marans have the right size and dark brown eggs, and d'Uccle have the other traits you want, then I don't see why you have Faverolle in the mix at all

If you want to work with the cockerel you have now, maybe breed him back to d'Uccle. Otherwise just start with Marans x d'Uccle.

From there, I would probably follow a two generation breeding plan:

--breed a mottled bird to a Marans. The first "mottled bird" will be a d'Uccle, but later it will be a bird from your own breeding. All of the chicks will carry mottling but none will show it. Choose one or more cockerels that have as many d'Uccle traits as you can get (muffs, feathered feet, etc), and if there is variation in size you want to keep the biggest ones.

--breed cockerels (previous paragraph) to a mottled bird (d'Uccle the first time, but later this will be a bird you have bred.) About half of chicks will show mottling. Among the mottled pullets, pick ones that have all the other d'Uccle traits (muffs, feathered feet, etc). Try to pick big ones if you can, but the other traits are more important than the size in this generation. Then raise up those pullets and see what color eggs they lay. Choose the ones who lay the darkest brown eggs, and use them as the "mottled" birds in your next generation (breed these mottled birds to Marans, then a son back to them, then pick pullets from that to breed back to Marans again...)

The reason I suggest this:
Each cross to Marans will give the genes for large size and dark eggs. Each cross back to a mottled bird will give some birds that show mottling (recessive gene), so you can be sure you don't lose that trait. You can see what color eggs pullets lay which is why you pick dark-laying pullets in that generation. You cannot see what color eggs a cockerel will lay, but if he had a Marans parent you can trust that he has at least some genes for dark eggs, which he will give to at least some of his daughters (and you need to keep a cockerel not a pullet in that generation, because you will be breeding back to his mother and her sisters-- who are obviously female).

Or if you think Faverolles have all the traits you want (except mottling and egg color), maybe cross Faverolles with a larger mottled breed (like Ancona or Speckled Sussex), then backcross to the mottled breed to get some that show mottling as well as the muffs and feathered feet. Use those chicks as the "mottled" birds for crossing with Marans to get dark eggs. (Or you could crossing your current cockerel to a mottled hen of some large breed, pick some mottled chicks with the right other traits, and go from there.)

-----------------
Alternative breeding strategy:
Start with a d'Uccle/Marans mix or with your current cockerel, and breed back to Marans. Half of chicks will carry mottling but not show it, half will not even carry it. Choose chicks that show all the other d'Uccle traits you want (muffs, feathered feet, etc), and test-mate them with a d'Uccle to learn which ones carry mottling. Take one that carries mottling and breed back to Marans again. Repeat for as many generations as it takes, then breed some of them to each other to get about 25% chicks that show mottling.

This works by crossing repeatedly to Marans to get the dark eggs and large size faster, and you can see muffs & feathered feet so it is easy to be sure you have those genes, but you will probably lose the mottling gene unless you test-mate each bird to be sure it carries mottling before you use that bird to cross to Marans.

If you can hatch chicks only once a year, having to test-mate birds will make this the slower strategy. But if you can do a test-hatch and then the actual mating within the same year, this strategy will probably end up with the right results faster. Raising more than one generation per year will also speed things up. Using males of your mixes, bred with Marans hens, will be faster than using Marans roosters with mixed pullets. (Partly because cockerels can be siring chicks before their sisters start laying, partly because females can retain sperm for a while after a mating so after test-mating a pullet you would need to wait before hatching eggs from her with a different rooster.) But of course you will need to raise females at some point to check on the egg color, and to breed with the males to get a pure-breeding line of birds.

I don't know how much you are in a hurry (one generation per year vs. more), and which traits you want to see fastest in your project birds (first strategy will have you working with more birds that show mottling, second will have you working with more birds that produce dark brown eggs). I described two different breeding plans, but you can also bounce back and forth. A bird that carries mottling (because one parent shows mottling or because you test-mated it to tell) can be bred back to a mottled bird to produce some chicks with mottling, or it can be bred to a Marans to produce some chicks that carry mottling and some that do not (but you can tell which is which by test mating them.)

Any method will produce many chicks that are "culls," meaning you do not want to breed from them on this project. If you do not already know what you want to do with the culls, I suggest you think about it before you hatch very manymore chicks. You might be able to sell some to other people, keep some females as layers, butcher males and extra females even if they are small, etc.

This is all very helpful! The salmon faverolle originally was because I started this project during Covid so i could not get my hands on any D’Uccle. The original thought process was if I couldn’t get the D’Uccle use the Faverolle bloodlines to add the beards, muffs and feathered feet then use my speckled Sussex or jubilee Orpington for the mottling. I changed course when I finally could get the D’Uccles.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

What base do you want for the Mottling?
Black?
If you do want a base color that's not leaky, you probably want to avoid back crossing later, instead do it sooner.

I am not sure with the base color. At this point I don’t really care as long as they are mottled. This is my first breeding project so I am really just dipping my toe in learning by testing so far.

 

[SourRoses]

I am not sure with the base color. At this point I don’t really care as long as they are mottled. This is my first breeding project so I am really just dipping my toe in learning by testing so far.

Understandable!
It may be helpful to decide as early as you can what base you want the mottling to be on. Do you like the Jubilee color on Orpingtons? A sharp contrast?
It can help to try to sketch your new breed idea (full disclosure, when I tried this my artistic mother laughed at the results, lol).
I follow a lot of breeding stuff on FB, and sadly a lot of projects seem to get derailed first by indecision and later by frustration. So the clearer you can make your vision from the beginning, I think you're more likely to find success.
With something like base color, if either parent line doesn't have it, you may need to introduce another bird early on to get something specific. Let's say it was black. You would have many generations of leaky birds to sort through before the black cleaned up. If you left that for nearer the end, it could become very frustrating. I don't think Copper Marans have black genes. And of course the Faverolle don't. What is the D'uccle base color?
Or if you wanted something like Jubilee, I think you would need to add mahogany??

Anyway, although the Mottling gene can vary in expression, in many cases the heterozygous form is noticeable in chicks. If you look at my avatar from my July 4th hatch, the chick in front is split. The chick right behind is fully mottled. The 3rd one, I am uncertain, I think she's fully mottled but I need to check her current feathering in the pen. So many things to do...
Their first 3-4 sets of feathers show it. It's only by the adult set that the spots mostly disappear.
Left: Split
Right: Fully Mottled

Split chick:

Mottled chick:

 

[NatJ]

This is all very helpful! The salmon faverolle originally was because I started this project during Covid so i could not get my hands on any D’Uccle. The original thought process was if I couldn’t get the D’Uccle use the Faverolle bloodlines to add the beards, muffs and feathered feet then use my speckled Sussex or jubilee Orpington for the mottling. I changed course when I finally could get the D’Uccles.

That makes sense. I think you could do it any of quite a few ways, probably with equally good results overall.

I am not sure with the base color. At this point I don’t really care as long as they are mottled. This is my first breeding project so I am really just dipping my toe in learning by testing so far.

If you want actual black base color, you may want to use some Cuckoo Marans. Cross a cockerel from your project to a Cuckoo Marans hen, and only the sons will have white barring (sexlinks.) So choose a female (no barring) to continue your project, and you will have genes for black base color but not white barring.

Of course mottling can appear on any base color, it just gives a different effect. Depending on what decisions you make, you could end up with a flock that all have mottling, but a variety of base colors. I think Swedish Flower Hens might have that.

Anyway, although the Mottling gene can vary in expression, in many cases the heterozygous form is noticeable in chicks. If you look at my avatar from my July 4th hatch, the chick in front is split. The chick right behind is fully mottled. The 3rd one, I am uncertain, I think she's fully mottled but I need to check her current feathering in the pen. So many things to do...
Their first 3-4 sets of feathers show it. It's only by the adult set that the spots mostly disappear.
Left: Split
Right: Fully Mottled

View attachment 3914467

View attachment 3914470


Split chick:

View attachment 3914473

Mottled chick:

View attachment 3914481

That is a very good point. Being able to recognize the splits can speed the project up quite a bit, and skip the need to test-mate as a way of identifying them.

I've seen some splits that were obvious (like the ones you showed), and I've even seen some splits that showed a small amount of mottling in their adult feathers, but I have also seen splits that could not be recognized as chicks or as adults (with a mottled parent, of course they had to carry mottling, but it was not visible at all). I don't know what makes the difference in which ones show it or not, especially since I've seen either version on several different color bases, but for a project like this it is far easier to work with the ones that do show it!

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Latest project chick to hatch! This one is Lavender Maran x Porcelain D’Uccle.