Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[chooks4life]

I've heard of the human benefits of turmeric and knew about garlic properties for any creatures for years...HUGE garlic fan here. But am going to give it a shot for the birds as well. I have a garlic press, so it can be freshly crushed...and will get a big container of turmeric today. But the rosemary that someone previously mentioned...not sure I will be able to get that in sufficient volume regularly to treat 100+ birds. But the garlic and turmeric is definitely a start.

Thanks all!

Buy plants if you can, I suggest, rosemary isn't hard to grow once you know how. I knew one guy who propagated thousands by hand, he just stuck sprigs in soil and misted them. They don't like non misted water while shooting from sprigs, apparently. I'm quite a fledgeling gardener myself but I've still managed to grow large bushes of rosemary.

If you live in an area too cold for it, you could try a variety of greenhouse or warmhouse growing techniques, there's a lot of suggestions out there that people have been using in cold climes.

Also, if you look for bulk sellers you can get a lot of rosemary and other herbs pretty cheaply... Comparatively anyway, considering what they sell the tiny satchels for LOL!

Best wishes.

 

[seminolewind]

That is a very long post, Chooks!

I think both sides have pros and cons. I am grateful that people like you are seriously attempting a solution without vaccine. I would hope we would hear from more people that are doing the same. I hope you and others are keeping written records with all of this. I know on here we talk about this one had***, that one **** , but I am sure that you are keeping written documentation.

I would say that most people that vaccinate for Marek's do so because they are not willing to go through all the deaths associated with breeding for resistance. I know I'm not. I tried 3 times and they were symptomatic and culled at 8 months old. I can't deal with the deaths. I have backyard pets. I deal quite a bit with vaccinated birds continuing to have compromised immune systems due to the virus and I treat for those opportunistic infections and cocci. Vaccinated or not, it appears that I have more trouble with chicken deaths by illnesses that a chicken would normally be resistant to as an adult. Marek's affects their immune system for life.

I've had 9 silkies in all starting 7 1/2 years ago and I lost 2 to Marek's. They were the heaviest exposed. My last one died a few weeks ago. At 7 1/2, it appears he got Pox that grew out of control and got worse and died in my arms.

I do follow the top researchers in the country, and yes, they are funded by big commercial chicken producers and vaccine makers-the money has to come from somewhere, as well as the interest.

Now there's a new biggest loss of chickens-enteritis. While the commercial growers are stopping their use of antibiotics on all chickens, enteritis has become a problem. So due to the widespread continuous use of antibiotics, it appears that chickens have lost their natural resistance to a number of opportunistic bacteria and cocci.

 

[lalaland]

chooks4life,
would you say more about how you are using herbs?

"Oregano, clove, rosemary, garlic, and turmeric are all great herbs for immune boosting or modulating traits, adding some of those on a regular basis will help. It always helped mine."

I'm using garlic, about once a month - fresh crushed. IF someone looks off, I will hand feed them a yogurt/garlic mix to get a good dose into them. Tumeric, in the feed weekly. the chickens definitely do not like tumeric, the days I use it, they do not eat all the feed. Could be I am adding too much..... I have never used clove or rosemary. I grow oregano for the chickens, and they do not touch it at all.

I'm interested in knowing if y ou are routinely adding these herbs to the feed and if so, how frequently and any idea of the amount?

 

[ochochicas]

I would say that most people that vaccinate for Marek's do so because they are not willing to go through all the deaths associated with breeding for resistance. I know I'm not. I tried 3 times and they were symptomatic and culled at 8 months old. I can't deal with the deaths. I have backyard pets. I deal quite a bit with vaccinated birds continuing to have compromised immune systems due to the virus and I treat for those opportunistic infections and cocci. Vaccinated or not, it appears that I have more trouble with chicken deaths by illnesses that a chicken would normally be resistant to as an adult. Marek's affects their immune system for life.

That pretty much sums me up. In the last year I've lost almost 30 babies to Marek's (out of about 35). Not willing to do that again. A whole line of birds are gone that I probably can't replace. I have one cockerel (vaccinated) left but he is not of breeding age yet so it is yet to be seen if the line will go on. His grandfather was killed by a predator and all his progeny thus far have died from marek's.

My original vaccine experiment is coming to a close this fall. I will be starting a new experiment where I have a control group of UNVACCINATED chicks. I'm really excited to see what happens.

 

[chickengr]

chooks4life,
would you say more about how you are using herbs?

"Oregano, clove, rosemary, garlic, and turmeric are all great herbs for immune boosting or modulating traits, adding some of those on a regular basis will help. It always helped mine."

I'm using garlic, about once a month - fresh crushed. IF someone looks off, I will hand feed them a yogurt/garlic mix to get a good dose into them. Tumeric, in the feed weekly. the chickens definitely do not like tumeric, the days I use it, they do not eat all the feed. Could be I am adding too much..... I have never used clove or rosemary. I grow oregano for the chickens, and they do not touch it at all.

I'm interested in knowing if y ou are routinely adding these herbs to the feed and if so, how frequently and any idea of the amount?

I sometimes mix herbs with their feed and they eat it I tried fresh oregano and rosemary and they didn't touch them. they don't like turmeric but when mixed with other herbs they don't recognize it, especially with garlic. I don't give them herbs every day, but I do tend to give them vegetables from my organic garden.

 

[chooks4life]

That is a very long post, Chooks!

Yeah, it's a complex topic lol, not as simple as 'vaccinate and whatever dies, dies.'

I think both sides have pros and cons. I am grateful that people like you are seriously attempting a solution without vaccine. I would hope we would hear from more people that are doing the same. I hope you and others are keeping written records with all of this. I know on here we talk about this one had***, that one **** , but I am sure that you are keeping written documentation.

Yes, I do keep written records, but I fear they're not much use to purebred breeders since most of my work was done for me in the mutts I got whose previous owners had let them experience natural selection.

In purebreds I only ran into deaths in one generation, I then aggressively removed the family lines that I identified as being responsible, and since that generation the remaining family members of that family tree have not had any deaths; but I do continue to cull against signs of a weak immune system and keep a hawk eye on the remnants. Which in my opinion does not happen anywhere near enough in the average flock; the emphasis and focus is on treating at all costs and not even considering the genetic mechanisms - strengths and weaknesses - underlying the problems.

I now believe susceptibility to scaly leg mite is based on weak immune function as my experiences back that up, and I'm culling even harder against that than I ever did rather than treating. (Which is not to say that I don't treat them, just that I no longer consider it acceptable in my flock to repeatedly treat a susceptible animal for life and continue to otherwise treat it as a good breeding prospect without a serious mark against it).

I would say that most people that vaccinate for Marek's do so because they are not willing to go through all the deaths associated with breeding for resistance. I know I'm not. I tried 3 times and they were symptomatic and culled at 8 months old. I can't deal with the deaths. I have backyard pets. I deal quite a bit with vaccinated birds continuing to have compromised immune systems due to the virus and I treat for those opportunistic infections and cocci. Vaccinated or not, it appears that I have more trouble with chicken deaths by illnesses that a chicken would normally be resistant to as an adult. Marek's affects their immune system for life.

I absolutely don't blame you or anyone in your situation nor do I have a problem with your continued use of the vaccine. It's not a simple and perfect world; what you do may have fall-out for generations, what I do may also, in fact it's pretty much a guarantee with both of us. Right/wrong doesn't really come into it I reckon, we're all doing the best we can with what we have and what we know. I wish you (and those in similar positions) all the best. It's apparent that some people would find working on breeding for resistance a severely difficult thing to do given their current position.

I've had 9 silkies in all starting 7 1/2 years ago and I lost 2 to Marek's. They were the heaviest exposed. My last one died a few weeks ago. At 7 1/2, it appears he got Pox that grew out of control and got worse and died in my arms.

I do follow the top researchers in the country, and yes, they are funded by big commercial chicken producers and vaccine makers-the money has to come from somewhere, as well as the interest.

Now there's a new biggest loss of chickens-enteritis. While the commercial growers are stopping their use of antibiotics on all chickens, enteritis has become a problem. So due to the widespread continuous use of antibiotics, it appears that chickens have lost their natural resistance to a number of opportunistic bacteria and cocci.

I have found some interesting info on enteritis, causes of it anyway; it's not only due to the widespread abuse of antibiotics but also the eradication of weaker strains of salmonella (thanks to the 'almost all eggs are infected with salmonella!' scaremongering) - those vaccines worked altogether too well and as is the case with many weaker diseases, those weaker strains of salmonella were protecting chickens from worse strains and other problems, which were also protecting us too.

The weaker strains caused almost no illness nor mortality in either humans or chickens, it was very rare. Now there are outbreaks with losses of both humans and chickens basically as a rule.

The worst strain that causes enteritis is now prevalent thanks to the vaccines wiping out the weaker strains in commercial flocks (thankfully non commercial flocks still tend to have the weaker strain that protects against the stronger strain)... And I fear there may be similar repercussions with Marek's if ever it is wiped out. Normally, the common and weaker strains of it are less threatening among chickens than the common cold is among humans, but the antibodies may be invaluable for protection against worse things, which so often seems to be the case in immunology. Just a thought.

There is also a genetic basis for resistance to cocci, I've learned.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

chooks4life,
would you say more about how you are using herbs?

"Oregano, clove, rosemary, garlic, and turmeric are all great herbs for immune boosting or modulating traits, adding some of those on a regular basis will help. It always helped mine."

I'm using garlic, about once a month - fresh crushed. IF someone looks off, I will hand feed them a yogurt/garlic mix to get a good dose into them. Tumeric, in the feed weekly. the chickens definitely do not like tumeric, the days I use it, they do not eat all the feed. Could be I am adding too much..... I have never used clove or rosemary. I grow oregano for the chickens, and they do not touch it at all.

I'm interested in knowing if y ou are routinely adding these herbs to the feed and if so, how frequently and any idea of the amount?

Oregano oil was trialed with success in commercial operations - I can find the link if you like - it's one of the most powerful natural antibiotics there are.

It was added to water and had amazing effects, I would think everyone struggling with Marek's - whether they vaccinate or do not - would vastly benefit from using this. It has widespread effects, antifungal, antibacterial, antiviral, etc etc etc...

I very seldom use it because the culinary strain is basically worthless and the chickens don't like it, and I do not have access to a better type yet, but I hope to obtain and use oregano oil of the medicinal quality. I mention it because it's a 'definite' in my book from everything I have read on it. It's just a matter of time, finances, the right supplier, all that standing in my way, and I admit it's not a priority at the moment.

I think, being one of the very powerful medicines, it's best not used continuously, but rather something like once a month in the drinking water or on onset of disease. Some herbs are good for near continuous use, others best not. I have not heard of any damage from regular use of it, but as with anything potent if you concentrate it and overdose sooner or later you will see problems. That of course applies to almost every single vitamin and mineral and so forth as no doubt you know. Effective dose is pretty low, several drops of oregano oil in a 10-liter water bowl for example.

I have similar problems with rosemary, I have only ever found one strain that both I and the animals (chickens, sheep, goats etc) like, which also had the expected health benefits - it came from an Asian shop I no longer live near. Go figure! But as with oregano it's one of the most potent and when you find a good strain you are onto something powerfully beneficial.

There are many commercial cultivars, many merely ornamental, with varying medicinal value. Unfortunately this is the case with many herbs these days, you've just got to experiment with brands and breeds till you find the one that performs as expected. People don't accurately label too many strains, you just have to test and see if it works. Dosage when I did find some that worked was one handful of dried rosemary to 10kgs of food roughly. No need to be very specific. Also no need to do it more than once a week I think but it's not one of those you need to worry about overdosing with either.

Odd that the chickens do not like turmeric - but I have my suspicions as to why. Is it organic and naturally dried, of a more gentle orange/yellow, or of a fluorescent coloration? Some producers render it less than great by their processing methods lol... In fact some methods are harmful. Speed-drying and some extraction methods make healthy things toxic and few herbalists go the healthiest route in drying herbs for use, it's all about speed.

Right now I am looking into growing my own, as with so many herbs lol. There are various strains so testing a variety will be the go. I think freshly grated raw turmeric might go down far, far better with chickens than powdered/dried which may be overly rich for their needs; dosage of dried turmeric is a teaspoon or several per day for an adult human so you may be overdosing the chooks who would probably need a pinch per 10 hens or so. That said some of my hens will avoid even that, while others will freely consume much more. There are thousands of studies proving the benefits of turmeric for all species tested thus far so it's something I'm going to continue to work on.

I suspect older chickens that were conventionally raised (antibiotics, conventional wormers, vaccines etc) should be carefully treated (if at all) with turmeric, because the curcumin in it can be problematic for damaged kidneys and livers - which the majority of conventionally reared chickens (and many non-conventionally reared chickens as well) suffer from despite seeming healthy. One industry source reckons over 80% of all chicken deaths due to disease involve the liver.

I have some older, weakly hens (bad family line I keep around to learn from, they do enjoy 'normal' enough health but not 100%) --- and they absolutely will not touch food with turmeric in it. I know for a fact their livers are not great or even decent. But livers are amazing things, we and animals can continue to function in sufficient health with only a tiny functioning amount of liver left.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: For those of you who are very keen on seeing the science behind herbal medicines - this is a series of books I think you will find fascinating. Chock-full of scientific research. Especially applicable to Aussies but also to anyone interested in herbs because it does cover introduced species and Aussie species have also been introduced into other countries.

(Shop around for price obviously lol).

Best wishes.

 

[chickengr]

Oregano oil was trialed with success in commercial operations - I can find the link if you like - it's one of the most powerful natural antibiotics there are.

It was added to water and had amazing effects, I would think everyone struggling with Marek's - whether they vaccinate or do not - would vastly benefit from using this. It has widespread effects, antifungal, antibacterial, antiviral, etc etc etc...

I very seldom use it because the culinary strain is basically worthless and the chickens don't like it, and I do not have access to a better type yet, but I hope to obtain and use oregano oil of the medicinal quality. I mention it because it's a 'definite' in my book from everything I have read on it. It's just a matter of time, finances, the right supplier, all that standing in my way, and I admit it's not a priority at the moment.

I think, being one of the very powerful medicines, it's best not used continuously, but rather something like once a month in the drinking water or on onset of disease. Some herbs are good for near continuous use, others best not. I have not heard of any damage from regular use of it, but as with anything potent if you concentrate it and overdose sooner or later you will see problems. That of course applies to almost every single vitamin and mineral and so forth as no doubt you know. Effective dose is pretty low, several drops of oregano oil in a 10-liter water bowl for example.

I have similar problems with rosemary, I have only ever found one strain that both I and the animals (chickens, sheep, goats etc) like, which also had the expected health benefits - it came from an Asian shop I no longer live near. Go figure! But as with oregano it's one of the most potent and when you find a good strain you are onto something powerfully beneficial.

There are many commercial cultivars, many merely ornamental, with varying medicinal value. Unfortunately this is the case with many herbs these days, you've just got to experiment with brands and breeds till you find the one that performs as expected. People don't accurately label too many strains, you just have to test and see if it works. Dosage when I did find some that worked was one handful of dried rosemary to 10kgs of food roughly. No need to be very specific. Also no need to do it more than once a week I think but it's not one of those you need to worry about overdosing with either.

Odd that the chickens do not like turmeric - but I have my suspicions as to why. Is it organic and naturally dried, of a more gentle orange/yellow, or of a fluorescent coloration? Some producers render it less than great by their processing methods lol... In fact some methods are harmful. Speed-drying and some extraction methods make healthy things toxic and few herbalists go the healthiest route in drying herbs for use, it's all about speed.

Right now I am looking into growing my own, as with so many herbs lol. There are various strains so testing a variety will be the go. I think freshly grated raw turmeric might go down far, far better with chickens than powdered/dried which may be overly rich for their needs; dosage of dried turmeric is a teaspoon or several per day for an adult human so you may be overdosing the chooks who would probably need a pinch per 10 hens or so. That said some of my hens will avoid even that, while others will freely consume much more. There are thousands of studies proving the benefits of turmeric for all species tested thus far so it's something I'm going to continue to work on.

I suspect older chickens that were conventionally raised (antibiotics, conventional wormers, vaccines etc) should be carefully treated (if at all) with turmeric, because the curcumin in it can be problematic for damaged kidneys and livers - which the majority of conventionally reared chickens (and many non-conventionally reared chickens as well) suffer from despite seeming healthy. One industry source reckons over 80% of all chicken deaths due to disease involve the liver.

I have some older, weakly hens (bad family line I keep around to learn from, they do enjoy 'normal' enough health but not 100%) --- and they absolutely will not touch food with turmeric in it. I know for a fact their livers are not great or even decent. But livers are amazing things, we and animals can continue to function in sufficient health with only a tiny functioning amount of liver left.

Best wishes.

I sometimes put some iodine in their water, that helps their liver.

 

[brideofchaos]

All of you have been SO helpful. I'm definitely going the herbal route. Am going to get some Oregano Oil for sure. Have gotten Tumeric but I doubt the little amount they'd get from their feed (with 100 birds eating) would be enough to be helpful....the oil is far more "sticky" to crumbles and pellets, I would think. The garlic I will struggle with because the sheer volume I'd have to press for fresh a couple times a week. But am going to think on that, too.