Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[chooks4life]

thank you for all the information.

I don't have fresh SJW. only dried herb and oil. I guess if I put 1-2 drops in 1 l of water or boil/soak some dried herb it wouldn't be too much.

No, doesn't sound like too much, but I have done very little preparation of herbs from raw form to anything else.

I looked up the LD50 of two of the main constituents of SJW, obviously in isolated extract form. Can't link to the books themselves, sorry:
Quote:

From what I've read, boiling is generally to be avoided, in some cases you only simmer below boiling for a varying time depending on the herb; boiling for more than two to five minutes at a maximum is very seldom done for any herb. If you do boil the herb you'd need to be sure to lid it properly so you don't lose any essential oils in the steam but that would be necessary even if you're just simmering it.

A dose of SJW for a goat-size animal is one handful of herb to two pints of water (according to one old herbal book I've got which thus far I have found quite reliable). This is for internal use.

External use is made stronger, two handfuls to two pints.

Oil is prepared by using two finely cut handfuls of flowers, immersed in a half pint bottle of olive oil, placed in a pan of cold water which is then slowly brought to a high temperature but kept below boiling point, simmered for one hour, then removed from the pan and the flowers left to steep in the oil for a further few hours before being used.

Ointment was made by pounding the flowers to pulp, mixed with chamomile flowers, (also pounded/macerated), two parts SJW to one part chamomile, then added to melted lanolin at a ratio of 50:50 herbs/lanolin.

With St John's Wort, the fresh flowers steeped in olive oil were used for all manner of wounds and skin problems.

You could look into making an essence or tincture too if you're worried about internal use. There's a variety of ways to do either, but they would be for external use since they're made via utilizing surgical spirit or vinegar for preservative, however if you're worried about toxicity levels this could be a safer way to apply... The research I linked to before does mention external application as well, so it could work.

Tinctures are made by taking about two ounces dried herb, put it in a large pot or jar, add one quart alcohol (cheap surgical spirit or vinegar can be used), let it stand for two weeks, then it's ready to use. Obviously needs storing in a dark place, and well lidded due to high evaporative properties.

Boiling it could be detrimental to the active compounds; I know it is with some herbs but others are fine to boil.

before I got chickens I did a lot of research and found that garlic and onion are not good for chickens. but later I found out that people do give them so I tried. my chickens love both and not only they have never had any problem but they are getting well sooner with garlic and onion (I live in greece where it is very hot, windy with strong storms so there are plenty of viruses). my vet does not approve acv either. when I mentioned iodine he got mad and told me that iodine had been used by our grannies who didn't know what to do. but when all of my chickens survived dry and wet pox thanks to iodine he was surprised and didn't say a word. at least he started to pay attention when I say what I give my chickens and is willing to learn.

Odd that a medical professional would get mad about iodine which is still so widely used in modern medicine for its well documented properties! :/ 'Got mad' --- yikes! But if he's willing to learn that is great.

Best wishes.

I have just found I have what appears to be a classical case of Marek's in my flock, in a chick bred from a new rooster.

I brought this new rooster despite knowing he's of a breed known to be weak against most things (he was really only brought in for company for my damaged and tiny old pet hen)... He's a Japanese bantam. Asides from Seramas (which I can't get here), size-wise he's the only mate fit for such a damaged hen; I am semi-seriously considering getting her x-rayed when she dies to count the fractures and breaks all throughout her skeleton. (For those not familiar with her history, a feral dog jumped up and down on her). She's got a mosaic of a skeleton now.

One of his sons has developed the classical split-leg paralysis and he's right in the most at risk age group, and his eyes have greened a bit. Before, for a few weeks, I had noticed the classic wing weakness, both wings drooping so the primaries were splayed out (rather than the whole wing sagging, it's just the extremities).

If he dies I'll get it confirmed or discounted as to what it was but right now I am treating as though for Marek's.

I'm going to start with turmeric+oil+black pepper mix ('golden paste' as some vets recommend for a huge variety of problems) and when I have bought some SJW I'll be using that too... Or maybe I will use the fresh plants on the property. It certainly does look like Marek's but time will tell. And testing, if he dies.

I also have one of my oldest hens from a line almost completely prone to ALV, who is now showing the same symptoms the others did before they died. Almost her entire female family tree died of ALV, I culled it out quite aggressively, but she was kept on for eggs because she didn't go down around the two year mark like they did so I thought her clear. Maybe not, after all. She wasn't used for breeding anyway but may provide some education.

I gave her a dose of turmeric and she's perked up and is acting normal, but time will tell, ALV is notorious for relapses from normal behavior. I thought she'd be dead in the morning, she went down so suddenly and hard. Time will tell.

 

[lalaland]

chooks4life, I really appreciate your detailed replies and information, so very helpful.

Would you explain more about the golden paste and how you use it? that is totally new to me.


On tumeric, I bought a kilo packet at an indian grocery. I'll have to compare its color to the organic tumeric at the coop. Most likely I have the poorly processed kind....Since I read your post I have been exploring growing tumeric - it would have to be indoor here as it is subzero many months of the year.

cheers,
Rebecca

 

[chooks4life]

Turmeric's something I'm still learning about, I first came across people referring to feeding it to poultry in the St John's Wort thread. Since then I've come across a lot of info on it, both anecdotal and scientific research. It's an amazing and potent plant.

The main active property is curcumin (or, more accurately, curcuminoids) but in isolated, concentrated form they can cause liver failure, so don't use curcumin extract unless you know what you're doing, and not in prolonged and high dosage.

In the smaller dosage found naturally within turmeric however they are more easily assimilated by the body and have been used to regenerate damaged livers, conversely. (A good example of how dangerous 'optimized' extracts can potentially be. The whole spectrum of cofactors etc is necessary to properly assimilate a naturally occurring chemical as harmlessly and beneficially as possible).

'Golden paste' is a combination of oil, black pepper, perhaps ginger (optional) and turmeric.

The piperine in black pepper vastly extends the duration of time the curcumin spends in the bloodstream, increasing its working time; the oil is necessary because turmeric is basically oil-soluble not water-soluble so when consumed without oil most of it just passes through undigested. Hence the use of 'golden paste' or 'GP' as they call it.

If you check PubMed or just about any decent sized scientific journal or database for info on turmeric or curcumin you'll find thousands of studies proving its efficacy against many things but especially cancers. Anything inflammatory, too, it helps with, and that's practically all disease.
Quote:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...cedaily+(Latest+Science+News+--+ScienceDaily)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120210105859.htm
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/turmeric-boosts-working-memory-one-small-dose
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...ff1cd1c8e8b553c26d2c38c6c4032739&searchtype=a

(There are a heck of a lot more websites out there with research on it but that will do for a start, as I'm about to be off for the night).

On facebook there's a group called the Turmeric User Group and it's got some vets active within it who research turmeric and are gathering data on it, and there's a never-ending stream of animals and people in that group that are showing remarkable results from using turmeric. It's used in palliative care, as a painkiller, restores arthritic animals and humans to youthful function, it shrinks inoperable 'terminal' tumors and saves lives, reduces allergies, there doesn't seem to be much of anything it doesn't have some beneficial impact on.

To skip the drama of facebook (but also miss out on the often photographic and vet or doctor verified documentation of people's experiences with turmeric, many of which come complete with x-rays and blood testing etc) you can use the website created by the vet that kickstarted the turmeric testing, Dr Doug English. This site provides recipes and relevant info to using it and getting the most out of it.

Quote:
While it's early days yet, and without going into too much detail, I have a severe health condition that relapses on a regular basis. I have periods of being okay-ish, for months, and these switch without warning literally overnight into periods of struggling, for months. My health condition is not generally considered curable. Not contagious, but congenital and affected by various things.

I've started using turmeric to see what it may or may not do for me, and this is the first time in my adult life I have held off a relapse for so long.

It's like it keeps trying to happen but can't manage to; I get twinges or mild threats basically, but am for the most part remaining comparatively well. It's as though, rather than getting submerged in another prolonged episode, it's a bit more like occasionally getting pulled underwater for brief moments but overall remaining afloat. Nice change.

Best wishes.

 

[lalaland]

thats amazing. I didn't know about the fat soluble nature of tumeric, that means the tumeric I have been feeding the chickens hasn't been helping much!

I use tumeric in my own cooking but probably only once or twice a week. I can see I will want to increase that!

thank you for the links and information, and best wishes to you with your health.

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks, and good luck with it! I'm going to be pretty thorough in my experimentation with this, I reckon, it looks very promising indeed.

I forgot to mention, I've read that it's more efficient when cooked. Most people use coconut oil and cook the turmeric it seems. Haven't heard the reasoning behind that yet but if they're getting results that way that's what I'm going to try.

I've just realized this sort of discussion might belong in another thread since this one is about breeding for resistance rather than treating Marek's... But we're not the first people to discuss treatments in this thread and who knows, treatment may play a role in breeding for resistance (especially with very rare or very susceptible lines) so maybe this isn't too off-topic. Up to the OP I guess.

Best wishes to you and yours.

 

[chickengr]

Thanks, and good luck with it! I'm going to be pretty thorough in my experimentation with this, I reckon, it looks very promising indeed.

I forgot to mention, I've read that it's more efficient when cooked. Most people use coconut oil and cook the turmeric it seems. Haven't heard the reasoning behind that yet but if they're getting results that way that's what I'm going to try.

I've just realized this sort of discussion might belong in another thread since this one is about breeding for resistance rather than treating Marek's... But we're not the first people to discuss treatments in this thread and who knows, treatment may play a role in breeding for resistance (especially with very rare or very susceptible lines) so maybe this isn't too off-topic. Up to the OP I guess.

Best wishes to you and yours.

I am interested in breeding for resistance to any viral disease, not only marek's. as far as I can see, staff like turmeric, garlic, acv, raw honey, etc. is good for any viral issues. I use them to boost their immune system as well as to treat them when necessary. I think I damaged my last year's flock with the antibiotics and I am trying to avoid them. I have a 4 mo brahma pullet (the only one hatched) who was born among IB survivals. I gave her some baytril once, for a few days, and she is definitely my healthiest chicken. I plan to use broodies only for hatching next year. I hope that way I will get healthy chicks.

have you ever tried baking soda (for you and your chickens)? another thing I find good for viruses and boosting immune system (both, people and animals) is grapefruit seed extract.

good look with your health!

 

[chooks4life]

I am interested in breeding for resistance to any viral disease, not only marek's.

Same, it's definitely doable with many of them, there's enough decades of scientific research proving that for us to rest assured.

as far as I can see, staff like turmeric, garlic, acv, raw honey, etc. is good for any viral issues. I use them to boost their immune system as well as to treat them when necessary. I think I damaged my last year's flock with the antibiotics and I am trying to avoid them. I have a 4 mo brahma pullet (the only one hatched) who was born among IB survivals. I gave her some baytril once, for a few days, and she is definitely my healthiest chicken. I plan to use broodies only for hatching next year. I hope that way I will get healthy chicks.

Good luck with that! Hen-reared chicks are the strongest from what I've seen.

From both my research and my personal experiences, use of conventional antibiotics are to be avoided like the plague wherever possible (which is not always feasible, so if you've got to use them to save a life you don't know how to save otherwise, don't feel bad about it).

Conventional (not natural) antibiotics tend to damage the intestinal epithelium and can permanently eradicate some species of probiotics from the gut - for some reason they sometimes just don't come back - also they can cause liver damage and other permanent and harmful alterations.

Certain family lines are much more susceptible than others too and even mild, low dose antibiotics can just ruin them. As we learn more about how much of the immune system is based in the gut the importance of not damaging it becomes clearer and clearer.

My experience with chickens has always been that the more antibiotics and conventional treatment they've received, the further from true health and hardiness they are, and nothing I can do will get them to the level 'alternatively' raised chickens achieve healthwise. They'll look fine until too much pressure is applied and then they go down like a ton of bricks and don't tend to respond like 'alternatively' raised chickens do to any form of treatment, conventional or otherwise.

have you ever tried baking soda (for you and your chickens)? another thing I find good for viruses and boosting immune system (both, people and animals) is grapefruit seed extract.

Not really, but I have read a little about baking soda's uses; I do know the body manufactures sodium bicarbonate for numerous very important functions so supplementing does make sense and I do already provide it ad-lib for my sheep and goat --- but I'm still pretty un-read on its use in humans. Grapefruit seed extract is well proven, I'm aware of the research on that.

good look with your health!

Thank you. Same to you and yours.

 

[chickengr]

read this:
http://www.curenaturalicancro.com/en/

there are more internet pages about baking soda but they give more or less the same information.

 

[PetRock]

Turmeric's something I'm still learning about, I first came across people referring to feeding it to poultry in the St John's Wort thread. Since then I've come across a lot of info on it, both anecdotal and scientific research. It's an amazing and potent plant.

The main active property is curcumin (or, more accurately, curcuminoids) but in isolated, concentrated form they can cause liver failure, so don't use curcumin extract unless you know what you're doing, and not in prolonged and high dosage.

In the smaller dosage found naturally within turmeric however they are more easily assimilated by the body and have been used to regenerate damaged livers, conversely. (A good example of how dangerous 'optimized' extracts can potentially be. The whole spectrum of cofactors etc is necessary to properly assimilate a naturally occurring chemical as harmlessly and beneficially as possible).

'Golden paste' is a combination of oil, black pepper, perhaps ginger (optional) and turmeric.

The piperine in black pepper vastly extends the duration of time the curcumin spends in the bloodstream, increasing its working time; the oil is necessary because turmeric is basically oil-soluble not water-soluble so when consumed without oil most of it just passes through undigested. Hence the use of 'golden paste' or 'GP' as they call it.

If you check PubMed or just about any decent sized scientific journal or database for info on turmeric or curcumin you'll find thousands of studies proving its efficacy against many things but especially cancers. Anything inflammatory, too, it helps with, and that's practically all disease.

On facebook there's a group called the Turmeric User Group and it's got some vets active within it who research turmeric and are gathering data on it, and there's a never-ending stream of animals and people in that group that are showing remarkable results from using turmeric. It's used in palliative care, as a painkiller, restores arthritic animals and humans to youthful function, it shrinks inoperable 'terminal' tumors and saves lives, reduces allergies, there doesn't seem to be much of anything it doesn't have some beneficial impact on.

To skip the drama of facebook (but also miss out on the often photographic and vet or doctor verified documentation of people's experiences with turmeric, many of which come complete with x-rays and blood testing etc) you can use the website created by the vet that kickstarted the turmeric testing, Dr Doug English. This site provides recipes and relevant info to using it and getting the most out of it.


While it's early days yet, and without going into too much detail, I have a severe health condition that relapses on a regular basis. I have periods of being okay-ish, for months, and these switch without warning literally overnight into periods of struggling, for months. My health condition is not generally considered curable. Not contagious, but congenital and affected by various things.
w
I've started using turmeric to see what it may or may not do for me, and this is the first time in my adult life I have held off a relapse for so long.

It's like it keeps trying to happen but can't manage to; I get twinges or mild threats basically, but am for the most part remaining comparatively well. It's as though, rather than getting submerged in another prolonged episode, it's a bit more like occasionally getting pulled underwater for brief moments but overall remaining afloat. Nice change.

Best wishes.

Very interesting! I just saw a post on FB today about drinking a turmeric/coconut drink at bedtime. Do you think that the oils in coconut milk will be enough? I use coconut cream concentrate to make my coconut milk.

http://eatlocalgrown.com/article/14271-turmeric-milk.html

 

[chooks4life]

Very interesting! I just saw a post on FB today about drinking a turmeric/coconut drink at bedtime. Do you think that the oils in coconut milk will be enough? I use coconut cream concentrate to make my coconut milk.

http://eatlocalgrown.com/article/14271-turmeric-milk.html

I just looked it up and I do believe, based on the analysis on this site, yes, the oils would be sufficient for most purposes.

Quote:
Best wishes.