Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[spiderlady]

About the St. Johns Wort: I forgot to say that the reason I believed it was propping my hen up so to speak, is because when I noticed she was starting to act more sick and decided I would have to cull, I didnt do the deed right away. I took her off the herbs first and she went downhill very quickly after that. Like within a few days (maybe 3-5 can't remember) she went from a little wobbly and lethargic, but still totally mobile, to unable to stand at all and not interested in food or water. Possibly would have happened anyways, but it seemed like a dramatic change after ~2 months or so of no change while on the herbs. So anyways, just FYI. If anyone is truly interested I can dig up my notes from then and see about the exact time intervals, since Im just going from guesstimates here.

 

[jenniferlamar70]

Hi all. I'm not breeding my flock but have found we have mareks. Thought id come here since you all have so much experience.

 

[rebrascora]

@jenniferlamar70

Hi

So sorry to hear you qualify to join this thread.

It's a rotten disease! I have a 2 year old leghorn cross hen that is battling it at the moment. She has leg paralysis but is still laying and holding her own in the flock with a little assistance. She had a dropped wing as a youngster but recovered, so this is her second attack of it, which is pretty disappointing, although I'm fairly experienced with the disease now, so I know it was to be expected. I have quite a few pullets from last year and hens from the year before that I bred that didn't get it though, so it could be a lot worse. Just sad for the ones that succumb.

How many have you lost to it? Has the outbreak settled down a bit? Some get a very virulent strain and it wipes out almost all their youngsters. Thankfully I have a milder one that just hits one or two...hope yours is a mild one too.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[jenniferlamar70]

@jenniferlamar70


Hi

So sorry to hear you qualify to join this thread. :/  It's a rotten disease! I have a 2 year old leghorn cross hen that is battling it at the moment. She has leg paralysis but is still laying and holding her own in the flock with a little assistance. She had a dropped wing as a youngster but recovered, so this is her second attack of it, which is pretty disappointing, although I'm fairly experienced with the disease now, so I know it was to be expected. I have quite a few pullets from last  year and hens from the year before that I bred that didn't get it though, so it could be a lot worse. Just sad for the ones that succumb.

How many have you lost to it? Has the outbreak settled down a bit? Some get a very virulent strain and it wipes out almost all their youngsters. Thankfully I have a milder one that just hits one or two...hope yours is a mild one too.

Best wishes

Barbara

I've only lost 3 over the last winter to the mareks. I didn't know thats what it was until I had a necropsy done on my last bird. I feel lucky it doesn't seem to have taken more of my flock. I've been pretty upset. I planned on breeding and had been building my small program for the last year. So I'm very sad to no longer have that. I Wondered what others do afterwards. I plan on closing my flock and keeping as pets and for eggs. I've read waterfowl don't catch it from poultry so hoping my ducks and geese are safe. Everything I've read sais they are safe but someone else said they aren't so that confuses me now.. Its very disheartening.

 

[rebrascora]

I was very disheartened when I started researching the symptoms and realised what the problem was.
I had 3 youngsters go lame in a week. The first one, I assumed was an injury but when two more went lame a few days later I realised that it was too coincidental for all 3 to have sustained a leg injury in that time scale and started doing lots of reading which pointed towards Marek's and made things sound extremely bleak. The reality has not been so bad for me. One of the original 3 deteriorated over the next 2 weeks and I had to euthanize in the end....she was the first creature I had ever intentionally killed and I cried buckets! The other 2 both miraculously recovered a few days later, but then had subsequent more serious attacks, months and a year later. I nursed the second pullet for 3 long months when she was nest bound (unable to stand or walk) with her second attack, but she came back from it and went on to lay eggs and free range. The cockerel succumbed a year later and I euthanized.
I allow my broody hens to rear chicks each year and I keep the pullets and cull the cockerels. My flock is ever expanding as a result and whilst I still lose the odd chick or two each year to Marek's, the vast majority show no symptoms and appear to be fine. Of course every loss is heart breaking, but you learn how to care for the sick ones and when is the time to call it a day with them or let them keep fighting. I don't vaccinate for it (there was recent research which suggested that the vaccine may actually cause more virulent strains to evolve) and the chicks are broody reared within the Marek's flock, although I do also have separate flocks/pens at another location nearby that have shown no signs of it so far and I also raise chicks in those pens....mostly pekins (bantam cochins) so plenty of broody mamma volunteers there!

I'm now 3 years down the line with it and it is not nearly as bad as I was lead to believe from my initial research. I hope that you will have a similar experience and perhaps still realise your goal of breeding at some small level, if for no other reason that to sustain your flock.

Best wishes

Barbara

PS. I am certain that there are many, many more people who have Marek's in their flock (including breeders) who are either ignorant of it or turn a blind eye to it. As you have seen, the symptoms often appear as other things like coccidiosis, wry neck, respiratory infections etc....because Marek's suppresses the immune system and makes the bird susceptible to secondary infections. Many people assume these are responsible for the death of their bird without looking any further.
Broody reared chicks have stronger immune systems and are usually less stressed than mechanically incubated and brooded chicks, especially if they are reared in the flock....no integration issues etc, so that puts them in a better position to fight it. Stress is usually the trigger for a Marek's outbreak. Autumn/winter is the peak time for it. Pullets reaching POL, cockerels with raging hormones as they hit adolescence, change to colder weather and reduced length of day all have an impact on the immune system. That has been my experience anyway.

 

[jenniferlamar70]

I was very disheartened when I started researching the symptoms and realised what the problem was.
I had 3 youngsters go lame in a week. The first one, I assumed was an injury but when two more went lame a few days later I realised that it was too coincidental for all 3 to have sustained a leg injury in that time scale and started doing lots of reading which pointed towards Marek's and made things sound extremely bleak. The reality has not been so bad for me. One of the original 3 deteriorated over the next 2 weeks and I had to euthanize in the end....she was the first creature I had ever intentionally killed and I cried buckets! The other 2 both miraculously recovered a few days later, but then had subsequent more serious attacks, months and a year later. I nursed the second pullet for 3 long months when she was nest bound (unable to stand or walk) with her second attack, but she came back from it and went on to lay eggs and free range. The cockerel succumbed a year later and I euthanized.
I allow my broody hens to rear chicks each year and I keep the pullets and cull the cockerels. My flock is ever expanding as a result and whilst I still lose the odd chick or two each year to Marek's, the vast majority show no symptoms and appear to be fine. Of course every loss is heart breaking, but you learn how to care for the sick ones and when is the time to call it a day with them or let them keep fighting. I don't vaccinate for it (there was recent research which suggested that the vaccine may actually cause more virulent strains to evolve) and the chicks are broody reared within the Marek's flock, although I do also have separate flocks/pens at another location nearby that have shown no signs of it so far and I also raise chicks in those pens....mostly pekins (bantam cochins) so plenty of broody mamma volunteers there!
I'm now 3 years down the line with it and it is not nearly as bad as I was lead to believe from my initial research. I hope that you will have a similar experience and perhaps still realise your goal of breeding at some small level, if for no other reason that to sustain your flock.

Best wishes

Barbara

PS. I am certain that there are many, many more people who have Marek's in their flock (including breeders) who are either ignorant of it or turn a blind eye to it. As you have seen, the symptoms often appear as other things like coccidiosis, wry neck, respiratory infections etc....because Marek's suppresses the immune system and makes the bird susceptible to secondary infections. Many people assume these are responsible for the death of their bird without looking any further.
Broody reared chicks have stronger immune systems and are usually less stressed than mechanically incubated and brooded chicks, especially if they are reared in the flock....no integration issues etc, so that puts them in a better position to fight it. Stress is usually the trigger for a Marek's outbreak. Autumn/winter is the peak time for it. Pullets reaching POL, cockerels with raging hormones as they hit adolescence, change to colder weather and reduced length of day all have an impact on the immune system. That has been my experience anyway.

Thanks so much for sharing your situation. I believe your right about other breeders. I was suprised how many people opened up to me about their personal experiences with it. I didn't realize how many people have had it. A few breeders told me everyone has it they just don't talk about it. This suprised me. I never had heard of that. But it does make sense I suppose. The pathologist told me that is the number 1 cause of death in our area. If thats so more people have it then they let on. Its hard to lose my birds. I lobe them and keep them as pets as well. Watching them go through this was pretty miserable. I am relieved to know what it is though. Have you found anything that helps pull them through when an episode occurs? Or do you just cull. None of mine have survived once they got sick. Doing my best to keep them happy and not stressed. That can be difficult sometimes though. I have a friend who has taken alot of my birds. She has one presenting signs of mareks. I feel really bad but if I had known I would not have given them to her. It seems fine but it has the paralysis in its leg. I recognized it right away. She was talking about culling it. I don't know ifnits possible for it to pull through.

 

[rebrascora]

If you read my post again you will realise that I only euthanize when quality of life has deteriorated to the point that it is not sustainable ie there is no hope. If they are still interested/enthusiastic about food, then I give supportive care. The pullet that survived two attacks of Mareks was incapacitated for months the second time and a couple of times I told myself that next weekend I would end her suffering, but when the time came she was still bright eyed and had fight in her and I had to give her more time. Sunshine, grass and the company of other chickens helps in my experience but it needs to be in a protected environment. I was fortunate with her that I had another hen which probably also had Marek's at the same time. She was slightly different in that when she went lame, she tripped and stumbled for a few weeks and then learned to lift her bad leg/foot up out of the way and just hopped everywhere. She started to lose confidence in with the main flock (probably because there were too many rampant young cockerels) so I put her in the infirmary with the sick one, which resulted in the most ridiculous and shocking fight between two seriously incapacitated birds. Once the pecking order was established for the infirmary, and amazingly the sick pullet that couldn't stand, won, they palled up and that was actually probably a turning point for both of them. Putting them out on the grass in the spring sunshine in a large cage whenever the weather allowed also made a noticeable difference and I would scatter scratch in and around the cage, so that the rest of the flock came and foraged with them. On an evening I would open the cage and let them hobble/crawl or hop back to the hen house. It was not pretty to watch, but it was good physical therapy and each day the sick one became more mobile as she learned to coordinate her limbs. It was a long slow process but as I said she eventually started to lay eggs (I had to rig up a nest box in the cage for them) and finally became mobile enough to free range with the flock and even roost on a 6foot high roost. Sadly, she and her pal were victims of a fox attack a few months later and that really was devastating, as I had developed an extremely strong bond with her particularly. She had such a strong spirit and a wonderful personality.
Others have had to be euthanized after a week or two as they lost interest in food. Once they don't want to eat, there is no point in trying to force feed them as that only causes stress, which makes them worse. A quick end is the best you can do in that situation and I've started using long handled loppers (pruners) to do the job.....it is an awful but necessary part of poultry keeping.

I also love my chickens (as most of us do here on BYC, so don't think that is unusual) and when you have a sick one and they need special care, you develop an even stronger bond, so I know how heart breaking it is to lose them and I cry every time. Euthanizing them when necessary and culling excess cockerels is without doubt the hardest part, but it is a necessary and responsible part of it and too many people shy away from that responsibility. Unfortunately chickens are prone to many illnesses and don't live long lives, so death is something that you have to learn to deal with. Being experienced and knowledgeable enough to recognise when it is time to end it for them and being brave enough to do so, is my goal. There are a few occasions when I have left it too long and they have suffered and I regret those, but at the same time, I would hate to call time on a bird that has hope. Whenever possible I do my own necropsies afterwards, so that I improve my knowledge for next time.

I wish you luck with the rest of your flock and I hope the lame one that your friend has, makes a recovery.

My hen that is currently experiencing an attack of Marek's has had a year of good health between outbreaks and I'm pretty sure her current state is due to the stress of confinement (my flock normally free ranges), caused by an outbreak of bird flu in the UK over the winter, which resulted in restrictions being imposed. She has been lame for at least a couple of months now but is holding her own with a little help and still eating well and laying, so I would not consider euthanizing her at this stage.

I hope that gives you a bit more insight into management and care of Marek's birds.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[jenniferlamar70]

If you read my post again you will realise that I only euthanize when quality of life has deteriorated to the point that it is not sustainable ie there is no hope. If they are still interested/enthusiastic about food, then I give supportive care. The pullet that survived two attacks of Mareks was incapacitated for months the second time and a couple of times I told myself that next weekend I would end her suffering, but when the time came she was still bright eyed and had fight in her and I had to give her more time. Sunshine, grass and the company of other chickens helps in my experience but it needs to be in a protected environment. I was fortunate with her that I had another hen which probably also had  Marek's at the same time. She was slightly different in that when she went lame, she tripped and stumbled for a few weeks and then learned to lift her bad leg/foot up out of the way and just hopped everywhere. She started to lose confidence in with the main flock (probably because there were too many rampant young cockerels) so I put her in the infirmary with the sick one, which resulted in the most ridiculous and shocking fight between two seriously incapacitated birds. Once the pecking order was established for the infirmary, and amazingly the sick pullet that couldn't stand, won, they palled up and that was actually probably a turning point for both of them. Putting them out on the grass in the spring sunshine in a large cage whenever the weather allowed also made a noticeable difference and I would scatter scratch in and around the cage, so that the rest of the flock came and foraged with them. On an evening I would open the cage and let them hobble/crawl or hop back to the hen house. It was not pretty to watch, but it was good physical therapy and each day the sick one became more mobile as she learned to coordinate her limbs. It was a long slow process but as I said she eventually started to lay eggs (I had to rig up a nest box in the cage for them) and finally became mobile enough to free range with the flock and even roost on a 6foot high roost. Sadly, she and her pal were victims of a fox attack a few months later and that really was devastating, as I had developed an extremely strong bond with her particularly. She had such a strong spirit and a wonderful personality.
Others have had to be euthanized after a week or two as they lost interest in food. Once they don't want to eat, there is no point in trying to force feed them as that only causes stress, which makes them worse. A quick end is the best you can do in that situation and I've started using long handled loppers (pruners) to do the job.....it is an awful but necessary part of poultry keeping.

I also love my chickens (as most of us do here on BYC, so don't think that is unusual) and when you have a sick one and they need special care, you develop an even stronger bond, so I know how heart breaking it is to lose them and I cry every time. Euthanizing them when necessary and culling excess cockerels is without doubt the hardest part, but it is a necessary and responsible part of it and too many people shy away from that responsibility. Unfortunately chickens are prone to many illnesses and don't live long lives, so death is something that you have to learn to deal with. Being experienced and knowledgeable enough to recognise when it is time to end it for them and being brave enough to do so, is my goal. There are a few occasions when I have left it too long and they have suffered and I regret those, but at the same time, I would hate to call time on a bird that has hope. Whenever possible I do my own necropsies afterwards, so that I improve my knowledge for next time.

I wish you luck with the rest of your flock and I hope the lame one that your friend has, makes a recovery.

My hen that is currently experiencing an attack of Marek's has had a year of good health between outbreaks and I'm pretty sure her current state is due to the stress of confinement (my flock normally free ranges), caused by an outbreak of bird flu in the UK over the winter, which resulted in restrictions being imposed. She has been lame for at least a couple of months now but is holding her own with a little help and still eating well and laying, so I would not consider euthanizing her at this stage.

I hope that gives you a bit more insight into management and care of Marek's birds.

Best wishes

Barbara     

Thanks so much for clearing that up for me. I thought once the paralysis set in that they couldnt heal up. Sorry if this sounds ignornant but only just found out and still learning.

ill let my friend know what you said. She will be happy to hear this! Its only been a few weeks butbher hen is very spirited still maybe she will pull through!

 

[alibabba]

Hello,

As usual, haven't been here in a while.

Just checking in with some things I've noticed.

I apologize in advance, as most of this is surely redundant.

Lost one to Marek's confirmed by State. Just after POL. Back in the day, 1st batch of chickens. (Wow!)

Lost 2 bantams unconfirmed but obvious symtoms. Just after POL.

Lost just here and there others, Some splits but most sudden, so possibly something else... I have a damp yard, not good for Marek's, but good for a very strong Cocci.

Lost one pullet a few weeks ago, just at POL. Splits. Obvious Marek's. One of three chicks raised here, one homebred, 2 from local hatchery. Homebred, and other pullet laying perfectly. (Homebred is out of a vaccinated Breda Hen, and the Older Ameraucana Roo, the other is a Crested Creme Legbar and the one that died, luckily did not suffer long was a Wellbar)


I had gone ahead 2 years ago (Again, Wow!) and started with getting older Roos, thinking that they had probably been exposed and had immunity.

I am crossing with some homebred(unimmunized) and some immunized shipped chicks, brooded both outside and by broody hens.

This seems to work very well!

Of course I am mixing breeds here...undoubtedly good for immunity.

Have had more success than failure, never lost broody chicks young. And can count probably no more than 7(for certain) Marek's losses. The symptoms I have here are listless, pulmonary, acting drunken, and 2 or 3 clear "splits".


One interesting thing. I had a Polish Frizzle Roo, kept a few of his chicks. One was a funny Roo, D'Uccle cross, crowed once, but never bred a hen or laid an egg either. Was hardy as hell though! Roosted High in a tree (his choice well into winter)

I sold a couple frizzle pullets, unkown what happened with them.

Another frizzle(same Polish/D'Uccle cross) never laid an egg and then got sick and died. Very fast (could have been Cocci) not Marek's symptoms, the frizzles just in general don't seem as hardy.

So, I think..(not very scientific) The pullets that have been vaccinated, may have been exposed and produced antibodies that they mostly pass to chicks.

And, the Older Roo, most definitely has been exposed and is passing his immunity as well.

Sorry long and very unscientifically presented. Just wanted to share. XO

 

[alibabba]

I flubbed it... this is a Repsonse to Rebrascora above...

"PS. I am certain that there are many, many more people who have Marek's in their flock (including breeders) who are either ignorant of it or turn a blind eye to it. As you have seen, the symptoms often appear as other things like coccidiosis, wry neck, respiratory infections etc....because Marek's suppresses the immune system and makes the bird susceptible to secondary infections. Many people assume these are responsible for the death of their bird without looking any further.
Broody reared chicks have stronger immune systems and are usually less stressed than mechanically incubated and brooded chicks, especially if they are reared in the flock....no integration issues etc, so that puts them in a better position to fight it. Stress is usually the trigger for a Marek's outbreak. Autumn/winter is the peak time for it. Pullets reaching POL, cockerels with raging hormones as they hit adolescence, change to colder weather and reduced length of day all have an impact on the immune system. That has been my experience anyway."


Me:

Agreed, "There are many who have Marek's in their flock..."

Surely my local breeder, does not vaccinate and his chickens are exposed to all types of wild birds barn swallows and every type of bird...it's a farm! I don't begrudge the hopeful chocolate layer that I just lost to him. It's everywhere.

Plus, my backyard is a host to birds of all types, crows, wrens, robins, bluebirds, cardinals...etc. I have a ton of cover (it helps my chickens evade hawks, but draws birds, meh!)

You simply can not assume you are clean. Ridiculous. Assume it is everywhere and move on.

I'm very lucky though, no huge losses to this horrible Marek's. Just sad that we can't be tooo attached, because, you never know.