Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[seminolewind]

Http://www.ur.iastate.edu/IaStater/1997/may/chicken.html
Looks like they're working at introducing the Egyptian fayoumis genetics to other breeds of chickens.
Encouraging

It does sound good, but the article is from 1997, which is 17 years ago and where would we find the results that are up to date? I am just so tired of reading articles that sound good, but search engines don't seem to put things in the order of their being current.

Are Fayoumis hypothetically resistant to carrying the virus or getting symptomatic? Is the breeding for not being a carrier or just resistant to the symptoms?

I think back to the smallpox epidemics that are to this day virtually eradicated due to vaccination.

Let's say you get to where you're breeding resistant birds. Wouldn't they still be carriers?

Since the 1900's or earlier, isn't there an abundance of viruses which humans were never resistant to so we vaccinate?

I guess I think of breeding for resistance is one aspect of research to fight Marek's. I strongly feel that this project would require a very involved lab . And how does age related resistance figure into all this?

As I posted before, about clostridium resistance re chronic enteritis resistance, could higher protein and vitamins, and minerals play a part in resistance to something else? How about limited time with the exposed flock, such as 2 weeks with the hen, than a month away, then possibly 2 more weeks and possibly another month away ?

How can breeding for resistance be differentiated from age related resistance?

 

[speckledhen]

It does sound good, but the article is from 1997, which is 17 years ago and where would we find the results that are up to date? I am just so tired of reading articles that sound good, but search engines don't seem to put things in the order of their being current.

Are Fayoumis hypothetically resistant to carrying the virus or getting symptomatic? Is the breeding for not being a carrier or just resistant to the symptoms?

I think back to the smallpox epidemics that are to this day virtually eradicated due to vaccination.

Let's say you get to where you're breeding resistant birds. Wouldn't they still be carriers?

Since the 1900's or earlier, isn't there an abundance of viruses which humans were never resistant to so we vaccinate?

I guess I think of breeding for resistance is one aspect of research to fight Marek's. I strongly feel that this project would require a very involved lab . And how does age related resistance figure into all this?

As I posted before, about clostridium resistance re chronic enteritis resistance, could higher protein and vitamins, and minerals play a part in resistance to something else? How about limited time with the exposed flock, such as 2 weeks with the hen, than a month away, then possibly 2 more weeks and possibly another month away ?

How can breeding for resistance be differentiated from age related resistance?

So many questions. I have no answers, still thinking of the questions to ask. I also wonder about the progress after that article was written. Maybe we can see if that or other similar projects with Fayoumis are still being done.

I don't know that resistant birds would be carriers. They may just be very strong if they have the virus inside them and have not become symptomatic. It's not that way with Mycoplasmosis, though. If they have it, they are carriers and they do show symptoms at some point in their lives. If they are resistant, they just do not contract it, regardless of exposure. Exposure does not equal infection in the medical world. If they are not infected, they can't be carriers, except on their exteriors as with dander from a MD-positive coop mate, which is not what I am calling a carrier. To be an actual carrier of any virus, the virus must be present in the body, latent or active, but it has to be there.

So, is a resistant bird one who is "bullet-proof" as far as Marek's is concerned, which is what I think they are saying to some degree about the Fayoumis, or is a resistant bird one who may be infected with the virus and yet be strong enough/healthy enough otherwise not to show symptoms? I guess we'd have to define resistant as far as this disease goes.

 

[seminolewind]

Along the lines of resistance, I've somewhat concluded that my whole feed program is wrong and not pro resistance to enteritis or probably anything else.

I'm switching over to Manna game/showbird. It's 24% protein, where my goal would be 20-21% with layer feed. Birds need protein to build antibodies, protein gets used up fighting an illness leaving the bird lacking health. Nomal layer is 16% which I believe is not enough.

Feed does not contain enough vitamins and minerals, so that will be added as they too get burned up building antibodies.

calcium will be a supplement, not relying on feed.

I've always fed oats in molasses (horse sweetfeed) for their daily treat. I use about 1 quart for 30 birds and 6 geese. It's not a lot, but since illness have a party with sugar, it may not be good. I'll have to figure something else.

I'm really angry that I went to my feed store last week and they mistakenly gave me Country___ layer instead of Layena. The date of production was January 2014!!!!!!!!! The Layena is usually within a month old.

So my point is it may be worth while to look into a feed program that aids the bird in fighting symptoms.

 

[speckledhen]

Along the lines of resistance, I've somewhat concluded that my whole feed program is wrong and not pro resistance to enteritis or probably anything else.

I'm switching over to Manna game/showbird. It's 24% protein, where my goal would be 20-21% with layer feed. Birds need protein to build antibodies, protein gets used up fighting an illness leaving the bird lacking health. Nomal layer is 16% which I believe is not enough.

Feed does not contain enough vitamins and minerals, so that will be added as they too get burned up building antibodies.

calcium will be a supplement, not relying on feed.

I've always fed oats in molasses (horse sweetfeed) for their daily treat. I use about 1 quart for 30 birds and 6 geese. It's not a lot, but since illness have a party with sugar, it may not be good. I'll have to figure something else.

I'm really angry that I went to my feed store last week and they mistakenly gave me Country___ layer instead of Layena. The date of production was January 2014!!!!!!!!! The Layena is usually within a month old.

So my point is it may be worth while to look into a feed program that aids the bird in fighting symptoms.

I'm a bit stuck as far as feeds go until some of my birds are no longer here due to cost and my limited budget. My layer only costs about $12.50/50#. I give them 16% layer and their scratch is 12% protein, 11-grain mix. I've never used sweet feed with the birds. On occasion, I will get the 22% protein Super Layer from the same manufacturer (Tucker Milling), when they are in a molt. That is a couple dollars more than the 16%. And the feed I use does contain animal protein, which is lacking in many feeds on the market now. Even the scratch has animal protein bits in it (porcine sources) to bring the protein content up to that 12%.

 

[gjensen]

My point was missed. I was pointing out the shift of attitudes between now and then. You are right. There is a difference between surviving and thriving.

I think you are being unrealistic about our birds ability to be resistant to everything. It just is not going to happen. Such birds have never existed and never will exist.

There is more than one way to measure efficiency, but if we measure efficiency by pounds of feed consumed, we will never reach the level of efficiency that commercial strains have. Their entire model is based on such. Like them or not like them, what they have achieved is quite remarkable. It is not perception, it is reality. Generally speaking a 5lb hen is going to eat what a 5lb hen eats. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 4oz. per day. What she provides for that 4oz. per day is a different story.

 

[gjensen]

It does sound good, but the article is from 1997, which is 17 years ago and where would we find the results that are up to date? I am just so tired of reading articles that sound good, but search engines don't seem to put things in the order of their being current.

Are Fayoumis hypothetically resistant to carrying the virus or getting symptomatic? Is the breeding for not being a carrier or just resistant to the symptoms?

I think back to the smallpox epidemics that are to this day virtually eradicated due to vaccination.

Let's say you get to where you're breeding resistant birds. Wouldn't they still be carriers?

Since the 1900's or earlier, isn't there an abundance of viruses which humans were never resistant to so we vaccinate?

I guess I think of breeding for resistance is one aspect of research to fight Marek's. I strongly feel that this project would require a very involved lab . And how does age related resistance figure into all this?

As I posted before, about clostridium resistance re chronic enteritis resistance, could higher protein and vitamins, and minerals play a part in resistance to something else? How about limited time with the exposed flock, such as 2 weeks with the hen, than a month away, then possibly 2 more weeks and possibly another month away ?

How can breeding for resistance be differentiated from age related resistance?

Fayoumis have been found to be resistant. Are all flocks resistant? Who could say? A lot would depend on what has been done with them. For the most part they are in te hands of hatcheries. There has never been any widespread interest in them.

There are some flocks that have proven resistance, but we will not get our hands on them. They are kept as a genetic resource for more than one reason. Another is the peed in which they reach sexual maturity.

They are an ancient land race breed from Egypt that according to some came from Canaan. Some think there may be a connection to the first birds selected for egg production in Canaan. They would likely have originally been game fowl mixes.

I would guess that fayoumis (the proven resistant birds) could still be carriers. Similar to how Turkeys can carry the related virus.

Level of exposure and the condition of the fowl are always a factor.

Higher protein and vitamins is only relevant as it is to meeting the bird's needs. There is always a point where it is too much, and a waste or harmful.

I would say that prospective breeders @ 1yr of age are worth considering, where they are retained until the next generation is ready to replace them. Any bird that becomes symptomatic in this time frame should be removed from consideration. They eventually be proven for two years before they are replaced.

Outside the best way which would be to dose the birds with a measured amount of virus, would be to house the growers in an adjacent pen. The closer the proximity, the more assurance concerning exposure. They should be raised in that pen/house from day one. It should be done the same way every year. You would not want misc. variables to sway your judgment.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
All I'm saying here is that is a bird is trying to build it's needed antibodies because it's fighting an illness, they are going to need higher protein, vits, and minerals. Or they will deplete other areas of the body most likely starting with feathers and eggs .

 

[seminolewind]

I still do not have a final report, only two marked preliminary. I was going to give them this week and then at the beginning of next, if I have not heard anything back from Dr. Davis, call and check on what the status is. He didn't get back to me on the last two emails, which is unusual, so maybe he's waiting for something definitive to tell me. I'm assuming a lot here, of course.

The final may take 4 or so weeks. That's what mine have been running.

 

[gjensen]

All I'm saying here is that is a bird is trying to build it's needed antibodies because it's fighting an illness, they are going to need higher protein, vits, and minerals. Or they will deplete other areas of the body most likely starting with feathers and eggs .

You are right, kind of, but it can get past the point of helping. A good breeder ration is the best we can do, less adding a little oil seed.

 

[tridentk9]

Along the lines of resistance, I've somewhat concluded that my whole feed program is wrong and not pro resistance to enteritis or probably anything else.

I'm switching over to Manna game/showbird.  It's 24% protein, where my goal would be 20-21% with layer feed.  Birds need protein to build antibodies, protein gets used up fighting an illness leaving the bird lacking health.  Nomal layer is 16% which I believe is not enough. 

Feed does not contain enough vitamins and minerals, so that will be added as they too get burned up building antibodies. 

calcium will be a supplement, not relying on feed.

I've always fed oats in molasses (horse sweetfeed) for their daily treat.  I use about 1 quart for 30 birds and 6 geese.  It's not a lot, but since illness have a party with sugar, it may not be good.  I'll have to figure something else.

I'm really angry that I went to my feed store last week and they mistakenly gave me Country___ layer instead of Layena.  The date of production was January 2014!!!!!!!!!  The Layena is usually within a month old. 

So my point is it may be worth while to look into a feed program that aids the bird in fighting symptoms. 

An article I glanced at last night mentioned whole wheat being good for working against necrotic enteritis. And today I can't find it.
But I did find this one instead. It goes over ways to increase the chances of necrotic enteritis. Feeding the opposite might help It does explain why the choices are risk factors. http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/43/1/74