Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[chooks4life]

I had mites get going with my birds this year. I handle them semi regularly. If I find one bird with one mite or louse, I treat them all. For a reason, I was not handling them as frequently, and when I did I had an actual start to an infestation. It was interesting to note that in a given pen, that a single bird would have more than the rest. I did mark those birds. I did not cull them but I will know when I set my pens up. If all else is equal, I may not use them.

There is value in not breeding the most vulnerable birds. These birds can be considered less fit. It is difficult to know why they succumbed and others did not.

Often, it's worth having something bad happen, the knowledge you can gain is invaluable. I only keep vulnerable birds if they've made pets of themselves, generally, but as you say, it is hard to know why they were vulnerable in the first place.

I experimented with a rooster I had years ago, a severely ill bird, and found that for all intents and purposes, as far as I could test it, the fault of his weakness was not his; his offspring were vigorous and vibrantly healthy --- I still have his lines in my flock, some of the oldest and all tough, healthy birds, never ill --- but one of his first offspring, a son, had the dubious distinction of being infested by Old World Screw-Worm and some other currently unidentified type of flesh-eating maggot, and I wonder, is that just a coincidence?

(Just found out recently what one of those species of maggot was, the OWSW; the poor rooster had the first case known in Australia, which was previously considered free of OWSW. What's the odds?!)

Oh, and he was also the only chicken I ever had that got Blackhead. Which he did, twice. While he was unable to walk due to the maggots (or was it something else?)... His immune system had no problems dealing with the Blackhead within a 24 hour period, both times, but clearly he was not on an upwards trend there...

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think it's rather incredibly unlikely to be a coincidence that he got hit with a perfect storm when none of the others (bar his father) ever did...

The father appeared to have complete immune system collapse when he was given to me as a cockerel, I suspect due to some extremely severe toxicity, probably with attendant DNA damage since that's usually how it goes, but he recovered for a year there and I experimented and let him breed. Then his son cops a case of two species of flesh-eating maggots coexisting peacefully in him, that not a single other one of all my hundreds of chooks reared in that place, before, or since, ever got... It's not like he was the only chook or other animal on that place to ever sport a potential entry wound for those maggots, either. In fact I wonder if they even need one; theoretically they do, but I couldn't find it. His tail looked normal except for some little maggots in a small wound, which I left thinking they were just necrotic-flesh-eaters such as are rather common in some livestock (not mine, lol, that was a first for me)... But they rapidly ate the tail hollow, and moved into his abdomen before I found out that they were not the sort that cleans up rotting flesh, but rather consumes live flesh. Too late, and it all happened in a few days).

Another random find about susceptible/vulnerable individuals... While not being able to look after my birds like I usually do, I found one line is extremely susceptible to scaly leg mite as well as having some kind of hormone disorder that only kicks in after 2 years old.

Almost all my other lines just don't get scaly leg mite, even with complete exposure; some get it to a very mild degree. None of the other lines have hormone problems of any visible sort, to the best of my knowledge they're free of them. Another coincidence? Probably not...

These were hens I was going to cull anyway, from new blood in the flock that I tried years ago, but wasn't impressed with, but when I traveled I kept them for a bit longer than usual, to help supply eggs since I'd whittled down the flock a lot. Since I was traveling them and agisting them the quality of their diet dropped dramatically, and it's become most obvious that without a decent diet to help them, they show their serious shortcomings. They can't maintain a pretense of being robust on a lower value diet, but they sure can pass on a better one. Bad line.

The rest of my lines remain fine despite the frequently poor conditions they've lived through while I moved them, which has been good to find out even if it's been an unfortunate experience for all involved, but this particular line just nosedived; offspring they had are being overrun by scaly leg mite as chicks. Never seen anything like it.

Never would have found that out if I were able to look after them as I usually do. Possibly wouldn't have been a problem because I was going to cull them anyway, and never intended to breed them, but, education is invaluable, so I'm glad I learned. Now I need to review my journals and what it was that made me decide to cull them in the first place, just to look for possible clues; they had multiple points of failure, but I'm wondering if there is a 'type' I need to avoid here, because those hens are all as alike as peas in a pod and all have the same problems, as do their very similar offspring; hardly likely to be coincidental. Too many problems seem to have multiple cues, like one line of those Leukosis carriers I had, only their blue/purple skinned, white feathered, silkie-type offspring ever suffered from it. All other offspring of different phenotypes never had a problem. Now I'm wondering if there is a phenotype more susceptible to MD.

Best wishes.

 

[lalaland]

Tim, Corid is concentrated amprolium, which is the ingredient in medicated chick starter. Yes, it is a brand name. It's also called Amprol and Cocci-Rid. The meds in chick starter are for combating coccidiosis, however, they truly don't do much so I no longer use medicated starter and if a case of cocci, which is very common with chicks in the south, pops up, I treat as needed. Chicks with broodies rarely get it because they pick at mom's poop and she is already immune, plus they are on the ground sooner than most brooder raised chicks. Coccidiosis is not a big deal, usually easily treatable. It's similar to an intestinal malady like giardia.

Wormers and DE have nothing to do with coccidiosis, which is caused by organisms in the soil called oocysts. You would notice a chick suffering from cocci, if nothing else, by the bloody poop or by their hunched up, cold appearance. As I said, by the time they are older chicks, they are usually immune to it.

I want to add that some will tell you it's a management issue. Baloney. It can be if you keep a pig sty coop, but it's one of those things that just happens because it's in the soil and if you have three weeks of rain and chicks 4-8 weeks old on the ground, you'll probably deal with it eventually, especially if you've had chickens on that soil for many years.

the strange thing is that the grey-eyed hen was 4 or 5 years old, and you would think she was done with cocci, wouldn't you? but I guess, if she had mareks, it just got to be an overload? She had no indications of mareks except for the eyes turning color and partial blindness. I hope to hell I didn't jump the gun and have her put down unncessarily.

I appreciate the baloney comment!

I will definitely treat the cocci with corid tomorrow in the water. I've been advised to add more yogurt to their diet. I will be more diligent about ACV, have a big batch brewing right now from fall apples.

 

[chooks4life]

the strange thing is that the grey-eyed hen was 4 or 5 years old, and you would think she was done with cocci, wouldn't you?

Well, adult chooks do seem highly resistant, I've never had a case, but I do treat with garlic fairly regularly as a 'just in case' sort of preemptive treatment for many things, and of course plenty of older chickens on this forum are reported as having died of coccidiosis or having cases of it so it's not unheard of.

As far as I understand it's something that can overwhelm any already sickened chicken no matter how resistant they were previously, but I'd guess everyone here already agrees with that.

I think some are definitely more resistant than others, but any chicken that had a 'clinical' case of it before is probably permanently at heightened risk due to internal scarring from it. If they were showing bleeding in the stools, it's generally a safe bet damage was done which tends to last for a long time, even lifelong.

but I guess, if she had mareks, it just got to be an overload? She had no indications of mareks except for the eyes turning color and partial blindness. I hope to hell I didn't jump the gun and have her put down unncessarily.

If it's any consolation, it sounds like she was unlikely to survive anyway. That sounds like possible severe neurological issues, probably symptomatic of much wider-spread problems, since that's generally how it goes.

I've seen a fair bit of eye color and other tissue color changes in response to diet changes, specifically the level of iodine in the food, but also copper, sulfur, etc... If the body had a sudden collapse of vitamin A synthesis, for one example, that can create almost instant blindness and potential color changes as well because it's involved in a lot of processes; it's also vital for organ health of course, specifically respiratory system function. Roundup directly interferes with vitamin A processing in the body, for one example of a potential cause, it's quite common to have animals (and humans) poisoned by that in Australia.

Even if the relevant nutrition is going in, doesn't mean it's being used, even if previously it was being used. Any instrument can fall out of harmony or even just go silent in the symphony of the body's orchestra, at any time, of course, to make an analogy that hopefully works, haha... (Sometimes people dismiss potentialities because they seem to think bodily systems that were functioning before have some kind of permanence to them, it's almost like it's too far-fetched to think that these constantly working systems could suddenly stop working, and sometimes even pretty highly educated people forget the variability of the organism's systems.)

Really it's not uncommon for the body to suddenly stop utilizing something correctly, and the symptoms can often look like something viral or bacterial when really it's not.

All that said, it may well be MD in this case, I don't offhand know of anything else that causes the grey eyes; hopefully you'll know for sure soon.

Best wishes.

 

[lalaland]

thankfully no roundup exposure here.
They have good access to range so hopefully they do ok vitamin wise unless there is some sort of system failure as you've discussed.

i've given garlic on an inconsistent basis: minced and offered free choice, bruised and put in the water, added to mash, etc.

How much do you give when you are "treating with garlic"and do you mean treat as in tidbit or treat as in addressing a condition ? and i assume thats fresh garlic?

 

[chooks4life]

thankfully no roundup exposure here.
They have good access to range so hopefully they do ok vitamin wise unless there is some sort of system failure as you've discussed.

What sort of vitamin/nutrient mix are you supplying asides from the pasture/range?

If the pasture's been heavily fertilized, or just artificially fertilized for enough years straight, it can become dangerously imbalanced nutrient wise to the point of actually locking up nutrients so they can't utilize them. Just a thought.

You not using artificial fertilizers for even a decade straight isn't going to necessarily fix this, some of this damage is far longer term than that, in fact it can persist until deliberately and intensively corrected as it's not a self-correctable problem in many cases, so it's very possible there's damage from a long time ago still present.

The land I'm currently on is absolutely ruined by repeated overdose of artificial fertilizers.

As for the roundup, it's common enough to receive exposure to that through diet, of course, since it's quite heavily used on many conventionally farmed crops, and some farmers think it's harmless and safety guidelines and regulations are more like suggestions or over-cautiousness.

i've given garlic on an inconsistent basis: minced and offered free choice, bruised and put in the water, added to mash, etc.

Since I've been moving regularly it's also been on an inconsistent basis for me too; around once a week or fortnight, lately. I reckon that's probably enough, all things being otherwise acceptable, if you still have cocci issues something else is at play and the cocci is a secondary symptom.

I offer other herbs too, or mix them in the food. I also use lime on their ground, just pure calcium carbonate, to help control cocci levels etc. If it stinks, something bad is brewing (trouble).

Since moving, I've not had the opportunity to re-establish deep litter composting, so it's harder to keep the ground healthy. The lime still works really well, but as soon as I'm settled for the long term I'm going to get back into the deep litter, they were never as healthy on other coop floors as they were on that.

How much do you give when you are "treating with garlic"and do you mean treat as in tidbit or treat as in addressing a condition ? and i assume thats fresh garlic?

I mean 'treat' as in 'medicate', but they also do perceive it as a high value food. They'll eat it every day if I could afford it (they'll have to wait until I grow it, lol) but that's not feasible right now.

Yes, best to use it freshly minced and raw. Even dried and granulated garlic should do against cocci though, it's the sulfur that works for that more so than the antibiotics, the latter being the main reason to feed it raw and fresh for antiviral properties and the likes. Just to cover a broad base including potentially hiding issues I feed it raw and fresh whenever possible.

Amount doesn't have to be specific, if you're suspecting a virus is going through them or an overdose of harmful bacteria, then you could let them eat as much as they want, but even one clove per bird per day should do it. If they look sick or you know something is off, you can keep the garlic up to them for a week straight, that will take care of many things, but really even just one dose of garlic tends to as well. But feel free to experiment, it's not going to hurt them unless they have something like stomach ulcers.


Best wishes.

 

[seminolewind]

I just got my 3rd necropsy back. 5 year old BR Fern, who also was potentially Marek's exposed, results came back with cholangeocellular carcinoma which is a rare cancer of the bile ducts, cholemic nephrosis, which is kidney failure due to the bilirubin overload, pneumonia and myocarditis, which are probably caused by the kidney failure.

She was weak, wasn't walking, if standing on one of her legs and she would fall down. Jaundice, loss of appetite and wasting.

So based on these 3 necropsies that I've had done, no Marek's, but this pathologist said that the marek's tumors are early on up to 20 weeks. So I imagine that Marek's exposed older chickens may not die from Marek's but Marek's induced low immune system or resistance to opportunistic bugs and other things, and possibly cancer too. And there was no viruses isolated.

The liver and intestines showed moderate e.coli, but I am thinking that it was secondary to the liver damage.

So, what if tumors are not there? My first roo died of all the classic symptoms and had No tumors inside him.

Nambroth, or anyone else, have a positive without tumors?

 

[sassybirds]

Hey All! Just popping in to TRY to catch up (there have been a bazillion posts since I have been on last) and to see how everyone was. I am so happy that this thread has exploded- lots of great info on here!

Speckledhen- what were the final findings on your necropsy?

Things have been well on this end...no MD symptoms or deaths recently! Just dealt with a case of blackhead in my turkeys and dealing with some weak chicks that I hatched from a breeder. It seems like the breeder was breeding for "show quality" more than anything else that would be helpful, like hardiness, feed conversion, foraging ability, etc. Go figure! Ya live and ya learn!

I'll try to get on more often and not be so behind...I guess I have just been off in la la land! :yiipchick

 

[lalaland]

Hey All! Just popping in to TRY to catch up (there have been a bazillion posts since I have been on last) and to see how everyone was. I am so happy that this thread has exploded- lots of great info on here!

Speckledhen- what were the final findings on your necropsy?

Things have been well on this end...no MD symptoms or deaths recently! Just dealt with a case of blackhead in my turkeys and dealing with some weak chicks that I hatched from a breeder. It seems like the breeder was breeding for "show quality" more than anything else that would be helpful, like hardiness, feed conversion, foraging ability, etc. Go figure! Ya live and ya learn!

I'll try to get on more often and not be so behind...I guess I have just been off in la la land!

Hey, you can come visit me anytime

 

[lalaland]

hmmm nothing shows up in the quote box!

The land was last cultivated in the 70's, for hay, so it hopefully isn't too bad with residue.

When I am gone, they are in a very large fenced run with 5 full grown pines, brush, etc , but the ground in the run has gotten compacted. I've not tried lime, but might try - are you tilling it in?
I was adding hay but stopped because of an outbreak of rats tunneling under. I need a barn cat something fierce.

This is the first year I haven't had garlic to harvest, as it rotted out in the incredibly wet spring we had. But I'm planting it again. So much more reasonable growing your own.

 

[tridentk9]

 
 I had  mites get going with my birds this year. I handle them semi regularly. If I find one bird with one mite or louse, I treat them all. For a reason, I was not handling them as frequently, and when I did I had an actual start to an infestation. It was interesting to note that in a given pen, that a single bird would have more than the rest. I did mark those birds. I did not cull them but I will know when I set my pens up. If all else is equal, I may not use them.

There is value in not breeding the most vulnerable birds. These birds can be considered less fit. It is difficult to know why they succumbed and others did not.

It can sometimes be worth it to keep a "canary in a coal mine". Mark them and check them more frequently- if a problem is starting it will more likely start in the canary first. Gives you a head start in dealing with potential problems.