Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[ackie]

I'm not sure if I agree with your take either.. but I do gather what you are expressing and will take the time to look and consider further.

thank you. I was trying to express that we cant really make assumptions, in my opinion, without knowing more about how the disease works BUT it could just be that *I* dont know enough about the disease to make assumptions.

I chose not to vaccinate for Mareks because having chickens die of Mareks seems more ethical TO ME than letting them continue carrying it on to all the other birds. At least that's how I look at it - like if you have the flu and are bedridden, you're going to infect fewer people than if you're asymptomatic and are out and about the whole time you're contagious. Plus it would be a disaster for me to vaccinate lol.

 

[microchick]

Whow, @EggSighted4Life where did you get your Silkies? Did you get them from a private breeder? I wonder, if you did if that makes a difference.

I've read that some studies state that chicks from vaccinated hens may get a degree of resistance bred into them but everything I've read states that Silkies have very low resistance to MD.

I was offered a dozen Silkie chicks this past spring and turned them down even though they were vaccinated. I was too afraid my particular strain of MD would hurt them faster than my head pecking hens would.

@jwehl I've enjoyed reading your posts. You offer some really good questions about immunity vs resistance and the disease spread.

You have to remember that viruses can be transmitted long before the host shows symptoms. Look at Covid for instance, some people are highly contagious and never show any symptoms themselves becoming super spreaders of the disease. Think of MD in chickens as operating the same way. A bird can be positive for the disease having been exposed to contaminated dander and survive it's primary infection of the disease but continue to spread the disease in it's dander even though there are no discernable symptoms in the host chicken.

Vaccinating or not vaccinating is a personal decision a flock owner must make and what is right for one may not be right for another. I was losing so many birds at one point in time that I decided that the only way I was going to be able to recover my losses was to try brining in new chicks that had been vaccinated. I don't vaccinate myself. I usually only hatch out a dozen or so chicks a year as I have to consider what space I have left.

For me, vaccinating worked. I don't vaccinate my own chicks that I or a broody hatch out but every chick I buy outside our farm is vaccinated.

For me not to do so would be a death sentence for the chick and frankly, I don't need that kind of karma.

 

[ackie]

I don't vaccinate myself. I usually only hatch out a dozen or so chicks a year as I have to consider what space I have left.

For me, vaccinating worked. I don't vaccinate my own chicks that I or a broody hatch out but every chick I buy outside our farm is vaccinated.

yeah my logic was that I hatch way too many to have any vaccinated since that would give those birds the opportunity to become super spreaders and I want my original birds to have a fighting chance.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

For me, vaccinating worked. I don't vaccinate my own chicks that I or a broody hatch out but every chick I buy outside our farm is vaccinated.

Yes, the Silkies I had were from a few private private breeders. In an effort to get lavender I ordered some hatchery Silkies.. the quality of EVERYTHING genetic wise was very sad. I bought a bunch knowing most would not meet expectations, just to bring the Lav in. I ended up keeping zero. Recognizing that the more rare a variety of something is certainly makes it harder to work with. So even if it wasn't the one gene that offers SOME resistance to Marek's.. the over all better genes working together DEFINITELY make a difference. I also learned not to give lesser birds to my dear local friend.. who won't cull unless OBVIOUSLY suffering like severe ascites, now has those awful flaws running rampant in her flock.. 6 toed Silkies.. and that first cockerel was such a whack little jerk he attacked everyone.

I never experienced the head pecking causing a problem even in the double crested ones and that's despite keeping them with a huge large fowl flock early on before adding large fowl roosters for breeding. Although I believe the head pecking thing is possible.. I also HIGHLY think it get's blamed for wry neck, Marek's, and a whole host of other issues that SOME folks may be in denial or simply not aware of as possibilities. Thing is after keeping turkeys and seeing that turkeys are equipped to accept turkey pecking and such.. but chickens don't have the SAME defenses.. a chicken can withstand a chicken fight, a cat can withstand a cat fight, but a chicken cannot easily with stand a turkey fight.. Even ducks are bully-er than chickens in MY experience. This is just my assessment according to the over thinking and observations I've made throughout my animal adventures.

When someone touts something I AIM for the truth.. land race is NOT special or better than other breeds.. NOT hardier, or better foragers, or more resistant, or more predator wary.. etc.. just an over rated term.. and NOT truly survival of the fittest as I was lead to believe. Noting fittest does NOT mean most athletic but rather fits in the best.. outliers are more easily picked off.

You peeps rock! This conversation has softened my perception and broadened my understanding of breeders using Mdv vaccine. Now I can see it being used SOMETIMES as a wise tool for survival and not of denial. I even book marked this thread so I can do a deeper comprehensive review when I can focus well enough to fully digest what I'be taken a bite of here.

For me not to do so would be a death sentence for the chick and frankly, I don't need that kind of karma.

For me.. being born or hatching IS a death sentence as well for ALL of us.
So I try to ensure that suffering isn't NEEDLESSLY prolonged, once identified AND prognosis is poor.

I do have a dog named Karma.. as a pup she kept biting my female bully in butt. And since I like my pets to earn their name when possible I asked, what always comes back to bite you the arss.. Karma of course! Yes, what comes around goes around..

You ALWAYS reap WHAT you sow, LATER than you sow, and MORE than you sow.. according to my farm/garden practice/understanding.

 

[microchick]

That is good to know about the head pecking. I've watched my Amish barnyard crosses and even my BBR-OEGB hens and those little farts stand up on their tip toes to peck one another on the head. Yesterday I saw one of the Littles peck a hen three times her size on the head telling her to get out of her space and sure enough, the big hen moved, FAST!

I wish I could say that for me buying my birds from a private breeder was a good choice but it was the beginning of a nightmare for me that was three years of sheer misery. In this world, you pay your money and you take your chances. I feel like I paid dearly for those 18 chicks, if not in money then in emotion and stress.

I feel as you do about vaccinating. It isn't for everyone and it depends on your particular situation but for me, to protect my birds so I can enjoy them and not watch them slowly die or me have to put them down to keep them from suffering a slow lingering death. If I had my druthers, I would rather not vaccinate but if I want to have and enjoy a back yard/farm flock of birds, I have no choice.

Marek's disease is a game changer. When I started my flock, my intentions were to get a flock established and then start raising 'lawn candy' types of rare birds to sell. There are plenty of production type birds in the area but few of the beautiful, rare and unique to be found. I wanted to do that.

When I learned I have Marek's disease on our property. That all changed. Now I'm just happy if I can get a bird to live longer than 2 years and get enough eggs to give to neighbors and delivery people as tips.

 

[ackie]

When I learned I have Marek's disease on our property. That all changed. Now I'm just happy if I can get a bird to live longer than 2 years and get enough eggs to give to neighbors and delivery people as tips.

that's terrible

 

[microchick]

I have to agree with you @jwehl. There is nothing pleasant about Marek's disease.

When you are dealing with it, you have to set your goal bar low to the ground. For me, it's getting my birds to live longer than 1-2 years and for my hens to produce eggs for me. I don't sell my eggs. @EggSighted4Life spoke of Karma. When my loss of birds began to ease off I made a promise to St. Brigid that I would never sell my eggs. If she would watch over my flock for me I would see to it that anybody who needs eggs gets eggs without having to pay for them.

I know I will always have Marek's disease to contend with. I know I will continue to occasionally lose a bird to it. But every night when I lock up and know that my flock has made it through another day, I smile and say to myself. 'not today'.

 

[Sonya9]

Hi Sonya9,
I'm sorry if I missed this in any earlier post. Do you bring in vaccinated baby chicks or unvaccinated? Either way, are they not then exposed to the Mareks virus before they have any resistance to fight off? Do you lose any of the baby chicks? Thanks for your help.
Katie

Just saw this. I do not buy vaccinated birds or use the vaccine. I have had the hens raise some 20 odd chicks (of various breeds, usually only buy 2-3 at a time) with the flock over the years and only lost one to Mareks after a rat snake got in the hen house at night and ate her 5 siblings as well as killed the other broody leaving her as a singleton chick with her mom. That was a horribly traumatic event for all of us. Needless to say now the mama/chicks are locked up in a hardware cloth reinforced cat carrier at night! I also didn't know about Valtrex when that happened or I would have used it.

Tiny chicks under 3 weeks old virtually never get it, the adolescents are the most vunerable. In general I take note if anyone may be unduly stressed by something.

And yes if I bought vaccinated chicks they would most certainly be exposed to the virus before vaccine took effect. Personally I think the vaccine a bad idea that will cause way more problems down the line (and the solution with be more vaccines!). Even more worrisome I have heard several times the Covid vaccine may only prevent symptoms too and if that is true then Lordy will that get ugly. But that isn't confirmed, just something I have heard mentioned and it made me think of the Mareks vaccine.

 

[ackie]

And if you really want nightmares from what I understand the Covid vaccine may also only prevent symptoms but I haven't found enough real info to verify that:

yeah I'm pretty nervous about that
that's part of why you're supposed to keep wearing mask + distancing even with the vaccine.

 

[Sonya9]

yeah I'm pretty nervous about that
that's part of why you're supposed to keep wearing mask + distancing even with the vaccine.

So you have heard it too! I think the only people that panic over that idea are those that are aware of what the Marek's vaccine is doing. Chickens are kept in small fairly isolated flocks which slows/limits the damage the Marek's vaccine can do, humans are in flocks of MILLIONS and constantly travel to other flocks to spread our diseases!

The "experts" surely have to realize that is a global monolithic disaster in the making.