Muscovy genetic question

Discussion in 'Ducks' started by iajewel, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. iajewel

    iajewel Chillin' With My Peeps

    Oct 22, 2008
    Corning IA
    I know the white head is genetic, and most pieds are white birds with spots, so.. what is a mostly solid bird with a white head BUT that dark spot remaining on the top of the head after their final mature molt? Are they white headed? or ... what?
     
  2. ian4379

    ian4379 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    May 8, 2011
    Australia
    do you mean a cap?

    [​IMG]

    if so this is pied.
     
  3. iajewel

    iajewel Chillin' With My Peeps

    Oct 22, 2008
    Corning IA
    Yes, thats exactly what I mean... pretty duck...
     
  4. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    That is pied, the result of a bird having two copies of the recessive "pied" gene. The "other" pieds you see are actually split to white. Those "other" pieds will have rather random splotches and patches of white in no discernible pattern. When you see a bird that has a neat pattern of color and white such as the bird pictured in this thread, you are looking at "real" pied. According to what I've been reading and learning, the bird below is "split white" and not "real pied."

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ETA -- the above bird is not genetically "real pied" but is split to white...notice that the white feathers are random and non-symmetrical, unlike the symmetrical pattern of white feathers in the "real pied" bird in the previous picture.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  5. iajewel

    iajewel Chillin' With My Peeps

    Oct 22, 2008
    Corning IA
    Fasinating, thank you.

    So Im to assume that the true pied will produce solid colored offspring if I breed to a solid? or at least a few of them would be?
     
  6. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:According to what I'm reading, yes, true pied X solid will give 100% solid split pied, which will "look" solid.

    White is an incomplete dominant mutation -- have one copy of the gene, and you'll have some white feathers. Have two copies of the gene, and you'll have all white feathers. Having "some white feathers" leads some people to call the birds "pied" but genetically they are "split to white."

    I suppose it is possible that a bird that has two copies of the pied gene, and one copy of the white gene, will be white in all the areas that are white in "real pied" birds, but will have some additional random white in the colored areas on a "real pied" bird because of the addition of one copy of the white gene. And then that cute black "toupee" on top of the "real pied" birds could also be completely white if the bird also has the white-head gene.

    The lesson is that when you see a muscovy with a mix of colored and white feathers, you have to figure out if the bird is:

    Real Pied (2 copies of pied gene, having colored top of head and wings, with white face, bib, chest and belly)

    White Headed (1 or 2 copies of white-head gene, having a colored body but all white on head, complete after 2nd year)

    Split to White (1 copy of white gene, having random splotches of white feathers in a non-symmetrical pattern)

    Or a combination of two or three of the above.

    I begrudgingly learned this to help the forum...I've been learning about Muscovy genetics because it's a species I'm interested in adding to my "future list", but I'm interested only in B/B/S and Lavender. It may very well be that I'm missing a piece of the "white feathers genetics" puzzle, but what I've written is what I've learned so far from compiling information from a lot of sources, and seeing lots of pictures on the web (and often having to ignore incorrect labeling but trying to assign genotypes based on what the bird looks like, not what the owner types for a caption).

    Hope that helps.

    [​IMG]


    ETA -- back to your question, it's possible that a "pied" bird could be genetically a "true pied split to white" and if bred to a solid bird, you'd get 50% solid birds split to white and pied, and 50% solid birds split to pied...but being split to white will mean that there will be some white feathers, but not in the symmetrical "real pied" pattern. If the bird had the white-head gene, remember that it's dominant, so a bird needs only one copy to show the trait. In that case, half of the offspring will have white heads and half won't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  7. iajewel

    iajewel Chillin' With My Peeps

    Oct 22, 2008
    Corning IA
    Works for me. Thank you. I have some wonderful lavanders when your ready for some birds.
     
  8. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Haha...well, hold on to them, because it'll probably be 8 or more years from now. I graduate with my bachelor's in the spring, then I'm taking a year off before starting grad school, which will be another 5-6 years...THEN I have to find a job where I want to live (south Florida), buy a home with land, and...then I'll be ready.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. ian4379

    ian4379 Chillin' With My Peeps

    267
    9
    101
    May 8, 2011
    Australia
    Quote:According to what I'm reading, yes, true pied X solid will give 100% solid split pied, which will "look" solid.

    White is an incomplete dominant mutation -- have one copy of the gene, and you'll have some white feathers. Have two copies of the gene, and you'll have all white feathers. Having "some white feathers" leads some people to call the birds "pied" but genetically they are "split to white."

    I suppose it is possible that a bird that has two copies of the pied gene, and one copy of the white gene, will be white in all the areas that are white in "real pied" birds, but will have some additional random white in the colored areas on a "real pied" bird because of the addition of one copy of the white gene. And then that cute black "toupee" on top of the "real pied" birds could also be completely white if the bird also has the white-head gene.

    The lesson is that when you see a muscovy with a mix of colored and white feathers, you have to figure out if the bird is:

    Real Pied (2 copies of pied gene, having colored top of head and wings, with white face, bib, chest and belly)

    White Headed (1 or 2 copies of white-head gene, having a colored body but all white on head, complete after 2nd year)

    Split to White (1 copy of white gene, having random splotches of white feathers in a non-symmetrical pattern)

    Or a combination of two or three of the above.

    I begrudgingly learned this to help the forum...I've been learning about Muscovy genetics because it's a species I'm interested in adding to my "future list", but I'm interested only in B/B/S and Lavender. It may very well be that I'm missing a piece of the "white feathers genetics" puzzle, but what I've written is what I've learned so far from compiling information from a lot of sources, and seeing lots of pictures on the web (and often having to ignore incorrect labeling but trying to assign genotypes based on what the bird looks like, not what the owner types for a caption).

    Hope that helps.

    [​IMG]


    ETA -- back to your question, it's possible that a "pied" bird could be genetically a "true pied split to white" and if bred to a solid bird, you'd get 50% solid birds split to white and pied, and 50% solid birds split to pied...but being split to white will mean that there will be some white feathers, but not in the symmetrical "real pied" pattern. If the bird had the white-head gene, remember that it's dominant, so a bird needs only one copy to show the trait. In that case, half of the offspring will have white heads and half won't.

    your spot on with the white gene, i literally learned all this 3 weeks ago, looks like i may have hatched white ducklings from the blue pied duck above and a solid silver drake. they could however also be a combination or fume, tortora, and barred, we'll have to wait and see. i'll be posting the results when they feather out.
     
  10. rollyard

    rollyard Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jan 31, 2010
    Quote:Hmmm, but is this always the case, for example, Black Capped Whites? And how variably does hetero incomplete dominant white express?

    Quote:Yes, maybe?

    Quote:So how can this be? The solid or self silver drake shouldn't have the incompletely white gene (P) or dominant White Head (C) to pass onto progeny because if he did we should see some evidence of these factors in him shouldn't we? The duck looks pied patterned as a result of the recessive duclair (d) gene only (@ this stage & in later photo), but I guess could be hetero for P also? Even so, if the solid Silver drake hetero for d, no ducklings should be all/pure white should they! Unless.........!

    The ducks "cap" looks black & that is interesting considering she has blue dilution?
     

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