Muscovy genetic question

[AquaEyes]

Now I have a question -- is it necessary to have the white-head gene for a bird to be solid white? Are the birds that are white with dark caps really (P/P, c+/c+), and the all-white birds are (P/P, C/C or C/c)? I don't know...that's why I'm asking. I suppose the way to find out would be to breed an all-white to a solid that doesn't have the white-head gene, then breed a black-capped white to a solid, and see if you get white-heads in the first pair but not the second. Could this be why the black-capped whites bred true?

ETA -- I think this whole "white genes" mess is why I prefer to stick to solid birds.

BTW, does anyone have pictures of birds that are Blue-Lavender (N/n+, l/l) or Silver-Lavender (N/N, l/l)? Or what about Chocolate-Sepia (ch/ch, f/f male; ch/-, f/f female)? The white genes are less interesting to me than finding out how combinations of color genes work together. I posted similar questions about peafowl and combining their color mutations, but that sparked a big argument -- first that it wasn't possible, then that it shouldn't be "allowed" or encouraged.

 

[AquaEyes]

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Who really knows? But your queries did remind me of a breeding several years ago; a pure white drake mated to a bronze pied duck. They produced six drakes from memory, three white & three very haphazardly coloured bronze white pieds. The duck I thought did have duclair pattern, but with some white in normally pigmented area. Could she have been d/d, P/p+ (or D+/D+, P/p+ even)? Were the very haphazard pied ducklings the product of P/p+, & the white P/P? I have no idea what was hidden by the drakes white!

This reminds me of the thread in peafowl I started to try and sort through the genes that make "silver pied." Based on what I was finding and reading, I guessed that Silver Pied peafowl had one copy of the Pied gene, one copy of the White gene, and two copies of the White-Eyed gene. The effect is a bird that is about 80% white, with random small areas of color. In peafowl, White and Pied are alleles, and both are incompletely dominant. There is also the White-Eyed gene, which is also incompletely dominant. Thus for each of these three genes, having one copy will produce some amount of white spotting, and having two will produce more. With regards to amount of white, there was an additive effect of combining the three different white-genes. I theorized that "Dark Pied" peafowl are homozygous for Pied, "Split to White" peafowl have a few white feathers and look similar, the "Loud Pied" is a bird with one Pied and one White gene (remember, they are alleles, so a bird can't be homo for Pied AND hetero for White), and a White is homo for white. Add the White-Eyed gene in homozygous form to a bird with one Pied and one White gene, and you get "Silver Pied." I'm suspecting that something similar works in Muscovies, and thus a bird that is (d/d, P/p+) will be "more white" than a bird that is (d/d, p+/p+), and if you add the white-head gene, you'll get a bird with even more white.

Mother Duck (both side views)
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/48069_01_11.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/48069_01_4.jpg

And ducklings
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/48069_young_drakes_approx_12_wks_old_2009.jpg

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My blues were made on the incompletely dominant gene, not the recessive self-blue (Lavender). Thanks for desriptions & link which I have seen before. I have found hetero blue to vary in intensity between birds & moults, not to mention fading which occurs as the feather ages. I will certainly look @ blue more closely in the future now though as I have had problems differentiating between Silver, Blue & Lavender in the past

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Yes, they look like the Black Caps I have seen & heard about.

So what do you think the cause of the "Black Cap" pattern? What about a white bird with an additional "pattern" factor (allowing pigmented crown feathers) epistatic to homo incomplete dominant white?

I don't know, but I'm making a guess -- is it possible that the "solid whites" are really homo for white, and have at least one copy of the white-head gene? Then the black-capped whites might be homo for white but lacking the white-head gene. I don't know, but you could find out with test-breeding.

 

[learycow]

I find all of this genetic information very fascinating! It is very hard for me to follow, but I figured I'd throw in a few pics and see what you guys think too.

Here is a picture of my mating trio. They are all 2 1/2 years old, so I don't know if that would affect the amount of white feathers they have or not.

Here's one of the same hens. She is barred (you can tell in the first picture). Both of the hens and the drake have this black spot on their heads.

Here are some pictures of their offspring from this summer. (one hen is sitting on eggs due to hatch this week so I'll post pics of those once they hatch).
As you can see, I ended up with 6 white, 1 has a chocolate spot on it's head, the other 5 have black spots on their heads.

I also ended up with a few black ducklings, some were solid some were pied.

Then I got a few chocolates, one solid and 2 or 3 pied.

And of course, the lavenders. I got 1 pied and 2 solid.

And these were all from those same 3 parents!

 

[Miss Lydia]

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They are beautiful, I don't understand genetics at all but just wanted to comment on how pretty they are. Is there a big market for Muscovy where you are?

 

[learycow]

Thanks, I was surprised with all of the colors I got this year!

There isn't a huge market for them up here. Most people are just looking for a handful for pets. There is definitely more of a demand for them in the spring and early summer. Not so much this time of the year.
There are also a lot of orientals a few towns over from me who like to buy the drakes for eating.

 

[Miss Lydia]

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How hard is it to ship live birds? if the orientals want the drakes for supper what happens to the girls? I'd love to have a couple lavenders, I can't but would love too.

 

[learycow]

The females usually get bought by people who want some for their backyard. I had an overload of drakes this year. My first hatch, I had 3 hens and 9 drakes. The hens each got sold as a pair with a drake, but the extra drakes ended up as dinner.
The second and third hatch I ended up selling all as ducklings, and this last clutch it looks like I have more drakes yet again!
I have never shipped live birds but I have talked to a few people who do it. This is the time of the year to send adults, it's not too hot.
If you would like, I can always send some hatching eggs (it will have to be in the spring, my hens are done for the year). I know it's a long way off, but it is an option. I had 3 lavenders out of 22 eggs (not very many, haha).

I also have a hen on a clutch due to hatch any day now. If she has any lavender babies, it's always an option to send some ducklings to you.

 

[Miss Lydia]

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That is so nice of you to offer and if I had room I would do it in a minute, I will for sure keep you in mind since I have about 4 muscovies that are getting on in age.

 

[AquaEyes]

I think your breeder trio is split to white, which means that statistically, half of the offspring would be white. That the parents are "random-white" as opposed to the clean-patterned "real pied" in the picture I posted leads me to this conclusion. I'm a bit confused about their heads. It looks like they have the white-head gene, except for the cap on top. Could it be that they are pied AND split to white? Or is a cap what you get when a bird has only one white-head gene? Some of the babies are solid-colored, so I'm guessing that if one parent is real-pied, then the other wasn't...and split-to-white X split-to-white would give about 25% solid colored birds without white. Ugh....the white genes make me crazy.....I don't know if I can figure this out....I'm sticking to the solid colors!!!

But they are pretty cute.

You said you got one with a chocolate cap. This means your male is either chocolate or split to chocolate. At least one of your females looks to be chocolate also, but since chocolate is sex-linked, the females can pass the gene only to their sons. And their sons need two copies of the chocolate gene to show the chocolate color, so they must have gotten one from dad as well. If they got one from dad, then obviously he must have one to give. If he isn't actually chocolate himself, then he's definitely split to chocolate. The chocolate babies could also be females, which wouldn't require a chocolate mother but would require a chocolate or split-to-chocolate father. So that's two lines of evidence pointing at your male being either chocolate or split-to-chocolate.

I see the lavenders. That is an autosomal recessive mutation, which means that both sons and daughters must inherit one copy of the lavender gene from each parent in order to show the color. That means that dad AND at least one of the hens are carrying the lavender gene.

So...I'm guessing that Dad is either Chocolate split to Lavender and White, or Black split to Chocolate, Lavender and White (I can't tell from the pic exactly what color he is). I'm not sure about whether he has the white-head gene or not...and he could be split to other genes as well, but this is what I think he must be at a minimum. I don't know which babies are from which mom, so I can't say anything specific about either mom other than what I already mentioned.

Anyone else care to try?

 

[rollyard]

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I don't know if "all whites" are all white because they have the white head gene to inhibit pigmentation in the "cap" either, but even if they do, some factor must be responsible for the uniform colour expression in the cap in white birds both with & without the white head gene; an interesting theory!

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I don't know anything about Peafowl colour genetics, but what you have said is generally accepted I believe, ie, different genes that inhibit pigmentation in different areas of the bird (in this instance) in combination will result in a bird with less pigment expression, & therefore a bird with more white, & the addition of diluters & other pattern type genes (eg barring) should help. But sometimes as you would know it doesen't take combinations @ different loci to make a white bird does it, for example, homozygous recessive white in mallard derived birds prevents all (except maybe a bit of leakage) plumage pigmentation.

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I suppose so? I wonder if a % of capped birds are ever bred out of pure for white birds? Yet learycows birds have Canize (? hetero) but still express pigmented cap! Some other factor has to be involved I feel?

learycow, for your birds AquaEyes has given in depth info. Your birds obviously are a bit of a mixture when it comes to gene mutations. I would sum up:-

1/ You have bred auto rcessive lavender so your drake & @ least one duck have the factor for Lavender
2/ You have bred sex-linked recessive Choc; if only choc female progeny bred then probably (but not necessarily so due to small sample) your drake that has it, but if both sexes bred in Choc then your drake & @ least one duck have it.
3/ You have bred whites, so your drake & @ least one duck should have one dose of the incompletely dominant white gene. Could they be the product of gene combinations in the exteme (eg canizie, white, & duclair pied)? I guess so as it looks like some do have some coloured body feathers (are they pure white all over except crest?), but this isn't always the case is it! Could they be white due to some non-reported factor, eg recessive white? I guess so?
4/ The drake & @ least one of your ducks do have the white head (Canizie) gene (maybe hetero?) don't they, yet @ approx 2.5 years old they still have small pigmented caps? Could this indicate some epistatic "pattern" over pigment inhibition factor (white head in this instance) that allows pigment expression in the crest of Muscovy with it, even in the presence of various genes for white? It is consistent!

I don't know but food for thought I guess