My Beloved Roo Is Becoming A Problem...despite all attempts to turn him around.

[WalkingOnSunshine]

You are so right and you sure dont need an animal hurting little kids. My roo is 20 weeks. I'm hoping for the best in him but will be keeping an eye out for signs. We're good right now. The girls don't fear me so he doesn't have that to deal with. I go inside the coop every day and sit. He's used to me being around. I think I am prepared for him to challenge me. I guess thats inevitable. But my questions to anyone with lots of experience is, is every rooster destined to be mean? Is there hope for my Bill?

I have had many, many roosters over the years. I've lost count--30, 40 maybe? I've only ever had to send two to freezer camp for aggression.

I personally believe that roosters are to be treated as chickens, not as pets. Think about chicken language--what are you telling your rooster? If you pick him up and pet him, well, in a flock the hens groom the alpha rooster. You are telling him directly, in chicken language, that he's the boss of you. Of course he gets mad when you don't act the way he thinks you should! I firmly believe in making pets of hens, but leaving roosters strictly alone. Make sure they move away from you when you move towards them--that's a sign of chicken respect. He should not be afraid of you, but he should not want to be petted, either.

As long as he's not challenging you now--and I don't mean flogging, I mean other shows of aggression like putting his hackles up and moving towards you--then there's hope. I'd actually say that the odds are far better that he WON'T turn out aggressive than he will--there are more non-aggressive roosters in the world than aggressive ones.

 

[chynasparks]

Thanks for sharing that story about Clifford. I'm just asking questions because I want to give Bill all the chance he deserves. I'm learning as I go. I'm having a good feeling about him but I want to be prepared for behavior issues. I don't force anything on him except being taken to the other run. That's my way of raising them and I'm not prepared to change that any time soon. Money is an issue. Next summer it's my plan to extend their existing run but will still use the whoop run too. I want to be able to move them around the yard. That means I'll still carry them to it. Once I pick them up and we exit their coop the settle down. They don't struggle. I could walk all over the yard with them. Bill needs to continue to tolerate this.

 

[ChickenLegs13]

I don't think you can embarrass a chicken into good behavior. How can you embarrass something that poops in it's food or has sex on the front lawn in front of your kids.
And I've jumped up & down, crowed, flapped my arms, walked sideways dragging my knuckles on the ground & shaking my leg. All it did was make me feel like a chicken and the rooster totally missed the point I was trying to convey.

Chasing it with a mop, stick, shovel, kicking, beating and abusing it does not teach it a lesson. It reinforces it's instinct that you are a threat, and mort importantly, a threat that it sucessfully evaded. i.e. it reinforces it's bad behavior.
It has to be taught a lesson. How do you teach a rooster a lesson? You ever see 2 roosters fight? I mean really fight, not like sissy store bought roosters do, but like hardcore old-school barn yard roosters do. They don't teach their lessons by puffing up, jumping up & down and being scared of each other and glad of it, they knock the other rooster out. One will get kicked upside the head so hard that it knocks him out and he flops around on the ground like a fish out of water on the creek bank of life then he gets up and staggers off into the barn, crawls into a dark corner and doesn't move a muscle for 2 days. Then suddenly after 2 days he shakes his head, snaps out of it, stands up and comes out of the barn with a new attitude and outlook on life.
That's how you teach a rooster a lesson, knock him upside the back of his head with a stick and leave him flopping. What would you do if your husband left you "covered with bite marks and bruises," give him a treat or cull him?

I know it sounds mean but that's the law of nature and the only law a chicken understands.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I don't think you can embarrass a chicken into good behavior. How can you embarrass something that poops in it's food or has sex on the front lawn in front of your kids.
And I've jumped up & down, crowed, flapped my arms, walked sideways dragging my knuckles on the ground & shaking my leg. All it did was make me feel like a chicken and the rooster totally missed the point I was trying to convey.

Chasing it with a mop, stick, shovel, kicking, beating and abusing it does not teach it a lesson. It reinforces it's instinct that you are a threat, and mort importantly, a threat that it sucessfully evaded. i.e. it reinforces it's bad behavior.
It has to be taught a lesson. How do you teach a rooster a lesson? You ever see 2 roosters fight? I mean really fight, not like sissy store bought roosters do, but like hardcore old-school barn yard roosters do. They don't teach their lessons by puffing up, jumping up & down and being scared of each other and glad of it, they knock the other rooster out. One will get kicked upside the head so hard that it knocks him out and he flops around on the ground like a fish out of water on the creek bank of life then he gets up and staggers off into the barn, crawls into a dark corner and doesn't move a muscle for 2 days. Then suddenly after 2 days he shakes his head, snaps out of it, stands up and comes out of the barn with a new attitude and outlook on life.
That's how you teach a rooster a lesson, knock him upside the back of his head with a stick and leave him flopping. What would you do if your husband left you "covered with bite marks and bruises," give him a treat or cull him?

I know it sounds mean but that's the law of nature and the only law a chicken understands.

Aggressive roosters need to be culled, not taught a lesson. Aggression is an inherited trait. If the rooster is aggressive and you breed from him, not only will his sons have greater potential for aggression, but then any pullets you hatch will carry those genes as well and you've got that aggression firmly entrenched in your flock.

I give young roos ONE and only one chance to behave--if I see any head-shaking or hackle ruffling towards me, then I chase them all around the pasture and catch them and hold them down to teach them that I am the biggest, baddest chicken they've ever seen. After that, the next sign of aggression, they lose their heads. That only applies to cockerels, however--if an adult rooster raised his hackles towards me, he'd be gone. And I'm actually pretty lenient compared to some; there is a BYCer that will cull at the first sign of aggression, no second chances. We have calm roosters at our places, and we don't have to watch our backs. All roosters are not aggressive by nature; in fact, I'd say that most are not. So instead of letting an aggressive rooster continue to live and add his aggressive genetics to the chicken population, eat him and be done.

 

[carrieb62]

I think roosters attack for a few different reasons...

1). My house rooster BeeBee when he was 5-6 months he went through a phase where he became aggressive and my belief then was he was going through chicken "puberty" - kind of like when kids begin puberty, they challenge parents more and sometimes act aggressive when they really don't mean it! Human's aren't the only animal on the planet that have hormones! And hormonal changes can be ugly! At this stage with BeeBee I tried a few things to train him that his aggressiveness was not okay... I would hold onto his legs and hang him upside down, and right at the moment he would relax I would grab his beak and turn him right side up, and hold him tightly to my chest and still holding his beak, I would look him straight in the eye and tell him "NO". When I would let go of his beak if he chose to peck at me again I would repeat the process. And I kept repeating the process until he would either grow tired of it or realize he wasn't going to win that day. It took about a month before he finally stopped. He's almost 1 year and a half now and will on occasion "forget" and all I have to do is put him in his cage on "timeout" and he realizes, "hey, I don't like being alone!" BeeBee loves hugs, laying on his back and getting his belly rubbed, and he likes it when I snuggle him close to my face when make little a soft clicking sound with my tongue right in his ear.

2). And then there's the scared rooster! When Clifford left that mark on my chin it wasn't because he was being "macho" - it was because he was scared! I used the same training tactics with Clifford that I did with BeeBee and much to my surprise, it worked!!!

My opinion, and it's just my opinion - I think your rooster is scared! I think he attacked your dad because he is/was not accustomed to your dad. Maybe he viewed your dad as a predator? And then when you took the hens away from him it not only scared him more, but it also took away his "alpha" role when you removed them. And then he began to perceive you as a "threat". Am I making any sense? LOL Go ahead and call me crazy and I will agree that! LOL

Anyhow, I'm sharing how I feel - I have 9 roosters outside and only 1 of them is a complete ding dong! All of them understand who I am when I put them in their coop at night and don't struggle and sqwak - except for the one. Maybe it's because he just likes roosting on top of the coop - like the little kid that would rather sleep on the couch instead of their own bed! I don't know LOL Too bad there's not a "Cesar Millan" type individual in the poultry world to help us understand better!!!

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

2). And then there's the scared rooster! When Clifford left that mark on my chin it wasn't because he was being "macho" - it was because he was scared! I used the same training tactics with Clifford that I did with BeeBee and much to my surprise, it worked!!!

Scared roosters run away. Aggressive roosters attack. I've scared the heck out of my roosters on multiple occasions, in close quarters, as I caught them to deworm them or clip wings, etc. It's like a rodeo in there, all the chickens flying around like idiots. I've never, ever, once had a rooster attack me when he was scared even though I was clearly threatening him and his chickens in close quarters. I have had roosters try to attack me in order to put me in what they saw as my place. It was all about aggression, had nothing to do with fear.

You are assigning your roosters human emotions. They are really, really far from being human. A dog understands human emotions, but a chicken might as well be an alien they're so far from us. A rooster doesn't understand "that big mean human took my flock away." They understand alone, but they don't know you caused it. They are simply not that smart.

 

[carrieb62]

Scared roosters run away. Aggressive roosters attack. I've scared the heck out of my roosters on multiple occasions, in close quarters, as I caught them to deworm them or clip wings, etc. It's like a rodeo in there, all the chickens flying around like idiots. I've never, ever, once had a rooster attack me when he was scared even though I was clearly threatening him and his chickens in close quarters. I have had roosters try to attack me in order to put me in what they saw as my place. It was all about aggression, had nothing to do with fear.

You are assigning your roosters human emotions. They are really, really far from being human. A dog understands human emotions, but a chicken might as well be an alien they're so far from us. A rooster doesn't understand "that big mean human took my flock away." They understand alone, but they don't know you caused it. They are simply not that smart.

I'm deeply sorry if you find my opinion illogical. I've worked hard to earn the trust of my chickens so they don't feel the need to run away and I can hold them without them shaking in my hands or striking at me in self defense because they think I might hurt them. As far as Clifford is concerned, yeah he struck at me because he was scared - he never had a name, he had never been held by a human being, and he had no idea what the hell I was or what I was going to do to him. I went to visit him a few weeks after he moved to his new home, when I saw him from across the yard he was pecking & scratching the ground, I yelled out "Cliiiiford!" While all the other chickens in the yard continued on with their heads down, scratching & pecking, Clifford popped his head up and looked around and when he saw me he went "bawk bawk bawk"! Now please tell me that chicken is not smart! And so if you have a problem with me assigning human emotions to them, then may I ask why are you doing the same? You say you've scared the heck out of your roosters - isn't that assigning an emotion to them? You say aggressive roosters attack? Aggression is an unregulated/underregulated human emotion. Here's some "science" if you have difficulty accepting what I'm saying... http://www.livescience.com/13135-hens-show-empathy-chicks.html

 

[ChickenLegs13]

I think roosters attack for a few different reasons...

2). And then there's the scared rooster! When Clifford left that mark on my chin it wasn't because he was being "macho" - it was because he was scared! I used the same training tactics with Clifford that I did with BeeBee and much to my surprise, it worked!!!

Scared roosters run away. Aggressive roosters attack.

Carrie did your rooster actually attack your face or was he scared and pecked your chin, or was he like flapping around & got you or what?
I'm inclined to agree scared roosters run and aggressive roosters attack, but I'm not sure what "attack" means in Clifford's case.

 

[carrieb62]

Carrie did your rooster actually attack your face or was he scared and pecked your chin, or was he like flapping around & got you or what?
I'm inclined to agree scared roosters run and aggressive roosters attack, but I'm not sure what "attack" means in Clifford's case.

All hackles were raised as he aimed for my eyes, I jerked my head back and got nailed on the chin instead. It wasn't a peck either - he clamped down hard on the skin, the mark was 1/2 inch long.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I'm deeply sorry if you find my opinion illogical. I've worked hard to earn the trust of my chickens so they don't feel the need to run away and I can hold them without them shaking in my hands or striking at me in self defense because they think I might hurt them. As far as Clifford is concerned, yeah he struck at me because he was scared - he never had a name, he had never been held by a human being, and he had no idea what the hell I was or what I was going to do to him. I went to visit him a few weeks after he moved to his new home, when I saw him from across the yard he was pecking & scratching the ground, I yelled out "Cliiiiford!" While all the other chickens in the yard continued on with their heads down, scratching & pecking, Clifford popped his head up and looked around and when he saw me he went "bawk bawk bawk"! Now please tell me that chicken is not smart! And so if you have a problem with me assigning human emotions to them, then may I ask why are you doing the same? You say you've scared the heck out of your roosters - isn't that assigning an emotion to them? You say aggressive roosters attack? Aggression is an unregulated/underregulated human emotion. Here's some "science" if you have difficulty accepting what I'm saying... http://www.livescience.com/13135-hens-show-empathy-chicks.html

Empathy is very different from what you are saying. This link has no bearing on what we were discussing. Here's what I was taking issue with:

And then when you took the hens away from him it not only scared him more, but it also took away his "alpha" role when you removed them. And then he began to perceive you as a "threat". Am I making any sense? LOL Go ahead and call me crazy and I will agree that! LOL

Yes, chickens feel fear. All animals can feel fear. Fear is not a human-only emotion, and neither is aggression (I'd argue that aggression isn't an emotion, by the way). But you told the op that her rooster was scared and angry at him for taking away his alpha role, and started feeling that the OP was a threat because of that. That's higher-level thinking that a chicken simply doesn't do. I apologize for using the wrong quote in my response above.

My friend donrae has said on here "when you hear hoof beats, think horse, not zebra." What makes more sense, that a rooster with underlying aggressive tendencies has started to display them, or that a rooster suddenly was able to think through a long series of events, make inferences, and assign blame?

I also stand by my statement that aggressive roosters attack, scared roosters run. A scared and aggressive rooster might attack you when he can't run, as seems like happened to you--but without that underlying aggression, he'd just go limp and wait for you to kill him. (I'm not saying that you're going to kill him, I'm saying that's probably what he expects). I do not believe that your rooster, that you said had never known human touch, knew his name well enough that he heard you call his name and knew you were after him, while all the other chickens knew you were going after the rooster (after all, you'd called his name, not theirs) and kept on eating. Clifford sounds like he was showing normal rooster behavior, looking around for the source of the strange noise.