I'll answer the points you raised in separate paragraphs. I think you've taken what I said as a personal attack. But it wasn't.
Quote: In nature, they do not need to kill the weak members of the flock. That's how chooks in domesticity 'work'. In nature, many species leave the weak to die rather than culling them, and eating sick family members is unnatural for most species, because that's how many diseases get spread. Only some species naturally kill and eat their weak or injured. This is a common misunderstanding used to explain traits we have bred into domesticated animals. Most species leave their weak and injured or ill members alone, and get as far away from them as possible because they will bring predators and scavengers whose natural role is to clean up the unfit. They may drive a member away, but often act as though it has the plague --- they don't want to touch it. This is a survival trait, whereas eating sick family members is the sort of thing that can wipe out a species.
Lack of protein does not cause cannibalism in chickens that have more natural instincts. This sort will actually starve to death from lack of protein before trying to eat another chicken. 'Cage instincts' on the other hand quickly tend towards cannibalism. This is well known. It's another trait we have bred into them. Any chook from a certain background will entertain the idea of cannibalism pretty quickly if its needs aren't met, because that's how at least some of its ancestors met their needs. It's a survival trait that did not naturally come as one of the instincts wild poultry's ancestors had. It's a modified/introduced instinct of domestics.
Chickens pulling feathers out when establishing dominance is not related to cannibalism and does not naturally lead to cannibalism. Cannibals are a certain sort. Not all chooks will become cannibals under the right environment to develop cannibals, either.
As for the rest of what this paragraph of yours says... It's more or less what I was saying. Humans bred these traits into them via unhealthy environments and diets. Once it's bred in though, it's not so easy to breed out.
Quote: I didn't say 1/8th was 'too far' --- I said that if you cut that far in, once you're past the transparent part, it's into sensitive tissues. If the beak is quite long, 1/8th is not going to cause pain. In my chook's beaks it would because they free range and so don't have overgrown beak edges.
Just because you've done it, does not mean it wasn't painful. Just because it may have caused pain, does not mean you're cruel nor doing something inherently wrong. Personally I would cull a cannibal, but if I had more patience I'm sure it could be bred out of them. You're probably doing that. I wish you all the best with it.
They will often eat and drink while crippled or dying, too. It's got nothing much to do with suffering, more to do with survival instinct.
You never said you didn't do it more than once, and I didn't say you did. I postulated potentially worse effects if that treatment was repeated.
About debeakers at hatcheries, we all agree they're bad. However, chooks also often drink and eat 'within an hour' after that procedure, too, even though it is known to cause suffering.
Quote:
Not sure how its beak could possibly become 'cracked beyond repair' lol! If its beak was so brittle, the diet is to blame. I've found them to be quite safe and easy to use. However I like wiring and building too, so maybe for those with softer hands, something else might be easier, though I can't imagine a lighter would be less likely to cause severe injury in the event of a struggle. I'd guess it'd be more likely. Can't see how clippers could hurt its beak, really, not that much of the beak fits in, and it can't get trapped in there.
Many old poultrymen have used some truly nasty methods. That's not really justification nor reccommendation for anything.
I didn't say it was inhumane, just that it would hurt. Once heat gets inside a calloused or horned area, it travels and remains for a lot longer/further than if it was just applied to soft flesh or tissue. I'd rather a burn on soft skin anytime over a burn on calloused skin! The calloused skin, just like keratin does, holds the heat in for a lot longer. That would be painful by anyone's standards. But each to their own. I guess it's a lesson for the cannibal. Lots of livestock keeping methods involve some pain. When it is continuous and severe, we call it cruelty. I didn't accuse you of that, because it's not what you're doing. But I prefer my methods; each to their own. I'm just stating my reasons for not doing it the same as you.
About them returning to normal behavior, it's well known they fake it till they drop if even vaguely able to.
Quote:
One bird does not really equal a trend you can use to define something not being likely. Cannibals that have been actively exploring that instinct are known to mostly return to that behavior unless severely checked somehow. This is a commonly accepted fact. Some birds show temporarily cannibalistic traits but won't ever graduate to full fledged cannibals in a good environment. Others are 'dyed in the wool' no matter the environment.
The rest of it's just commonsense but won't necessarily guarantee a bird with strongly inherited cannibal traits won't start exhibiting them.
All the best to everyone, each to their own. "Whatever works for you" I believe the mantra of this site goes.
Quote: In nature, they do not need to kill the weak members of the flock. That's how chooks in domesticity 'work'. In nature, many species leave the weak to die rather than culling them, and eating sick family members is unnatural for most species, because that's how many diseases get spread. Only some species naturally kill and eat their weak or injured. This is a common misunderstanding used to explain traits we have bred into domesticated animals. Most species leave their weak and injured or ill members alone, and get as far away from them as possible because they will bring predators and scavengers whose natural role is to clean up the unfit. They may drive a member away, but often act as though it has the plague --- they don't want to touch it. This is a survival trait, whereas eating sick family members is the sort of thing that can wipe out a species.
Lack of protein does not cause cannibalism in chickens that have more natural instincts. This sort will actually starve to death from lack of protein before trying to eat another chicken. 'Cage instincts' on the other hand quickly tend towards cannibalism. This is well known. It's another trait we have bred into them. Any chook from a certain background will entertain the idea of cannibalism pretty quickly if its needs aren't met, because that's how at least some of its ancestors met their needs. It's a survival trait that did not naturally come as one of the instincts wild poultry's ancestors had. It's a modified/introduced instinct of domestics.
Chickens pulling feathers out when establishing dominance is not related to cannibalism and does not naturally lead to cannibalism. Cannibals are a certain sort. Not all chooks will become cannibals under the right environment to develop cannibals, either.
As for the rest of what this paragraph of yours says... It's more or less what I was saying. Humans bred these traits into them via unhealthy environments and diets. Once it's bred in though, it's not so easy to breed out.
Quote: I didn't say 1/8th was 'too far' --- I said that if you cut that far in, once you're past the transparent part, it's into sensitive tissues. If the beak is quite long, 1/8th is not going to cause pain. In my chook's beaks it would because they free range and so don't have overgrown beak edges.
Just because you've done it, does not mean it wasn't painful. Just because it may have caused pain, does not mean you're cruel nor doing something inherently wrong. Personally I would cull a cannibal, but if I had more patience I'm sure it could be bred out of them. You're probably doing that. I wish you all the best with it.
They will often eat and drink while crippled or dying, too. It's got nothing much to do with suffering, more to do with survival instinct.
You never said you didn't do it more than once, and I didn't say you did. I postulated potentially worse effects if that treatment was repeated.
About debeakers at hatcheries, we all agree they're bad. However, chooks also often drink and eat 'within an hour' after that procedure, too, even though it is known to cause suffering.
Quote:
Not sure how its beak could possibly become 'cracked beyond repair' lol! If its beak was so brittle, the diet is to blame. I've found them to be quite safe and easy to use. However I like wiring and building too, so maybe for those with softer hands, something else might be easier, though I can't imagine a lighter would be less likely to cause severe injury in the event of a struggle. I'd guess it'd be more likely. Can't see how clippers could hurt its beak, really, not that much of the beak fits in, and it can't get trapped in there.
Many old poultrymen have used some truly nasty methods. That's not really justification nor reccommendation for anything.
I didn't say it was inhumane, just that it would hurt. Once heat gets inside a calloused or horned area, it travels and remains for a lot longer/further than if it was just applied to soft flesh or tissue. I'd rather a burn on soft skin anytime over a burn on calloused skin! The calloused skin, just like keratin does, holds the heat in for a lot longer. That would be painful by anyone's standards. But each to their own. I guess it's a lesson for the cannibal. Lots of livestock keeping methods involve some pain. When it is continuous and severe, we call it cruelty. I didn't accuse you of that, because it's not what you're doing. But I prefer my methods; each to their own. I'm just stating my reasons for not doing it the same as you.
About them returning to normal behavior, it's well known they fake it till they drop if even vaguely able to.
Quote:
One bird does not really equal a trend you can use to define something not being likely. Cannibals that have been actively exploring that instinct are known to mostly return to that behavior unless severely checked somehow. This is a commonly accepted fact. Some birds show temporarily cannibalistic traits but won't ever graduate to full fledged cannibals in a good environment. Others are 'dyed in the wool' no matter the environment.
The rest of it's just commonsense but won't necessarily guarantee a bird with strongly inherited cannibal traits won't start exhibiting them.
All the best to everyone, each to their own. "Whatever works for you" I believe the mantra of this site goes.
