My Rights vs Rights of Others

This is a fascinating thread.

I had not considered the different way people define "being a good neighbor", so it was good to read about that here. I wonder how many conflicts could be improved by communities having a discussion about what it means to be a good neighbor for them.

For me personally being a good neighbor means looking out for one another and being polite and respectful. For me this goes both ways and is a balance between taking some steps to not disturb each other too much, and also allowing each other to largely live as they will. I do not ask my neighbors for permission to do something, but I do try to give them a heads up or engage them on it (like sharing berries, or letting their grandchildren visit to see the animals), I elected to limit things like chainsawing and ATVs to certain hours, and I'm very proactive about letting them know that if any animal or such of mine gets on their property I will promptly remove them and take action to prevent it from happening again. I also offer to watch their house and care for their garden when they are away.

Something I noticed from when I lived in the city was that people will accept any disruption that's perceived as normal but take issue with any disruption that's perceived as abnormal. Thus why a barking dog is okay but a crowing rooster is not for folks that did not grow up in the farms.

I briefly lived in Chicago, and I complained to a couple people that I hated how you could always hear the interstate traffic no matter where you were. They were quite confused and struggled to understand what noise I was even talking about, or that it could be bothersome to me. In that case I was the out of place person. I learned how normal it was for that area, and got over it (and then left shortly after for rural life again!!).

My current small town community is structured more like "It's okay unless somebody complains". While that does play an important a role in us living and getting along together peacefully, I have not seen the appropriate checks and balances for it going too far. There are no tools to use against somebody that complains too much. What we need is a tool for that flip side, when they begin disrupting your life more than you are disrupting their life. Maybe if your neighbor believes your rooster is a nuisance, everybody that lives on your street comes together for a meeting, you each present your case, and then there's a vote. Just wishful thinking, point is like all things there must be checks and balances and local buy-in of it's going to work well.
 
My beliefs are more in line with AOrchard's take on being a good neighbor. Maybe that's the Midwesterner in me, don't cha know. :) While one shouldn't have to feel like they have to ask permission to do something they're legally entitled to do, it just seems to be common sense to talk to one's neighbor and be considerate (as much as possible) to their comfort and concern.

My suggestion, as was someone else's, was offering extra eggs to a neighbor - seems to just be the neighborly thing to do and could ease disputes. The whole catching more flies with honey.

While I do appreciate the I'll do me and you do you concept, I do like the more cooperative approach to community.

I'm suburban/agricultural. Our rules are on 2 acres or less in a residential zoned neighborhood, you can only have 6 chickens, if you have a rooster and someone complains, you have to get rid of it. I'm not sure the law is if one owns more than 2 acres.

There's a whole theory of law on Coming to the Nuisance.

https://realtytimes.com/archives/item/8472-20060608_nuisancerights


https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/
 
Its interesting how many people jump to the conclusion that the rooster owners are the bad neighbor.

I have bought my neighbor gifts, shared tools, mowed his lawn, offered to gravel part of his driveway, etc..... And he just moved in.

He moved out of an apartment because he said he was tired of his neighbors "being in his business." Since moving in he has complained about where I have my garden, my chickens, and told me we need more regulations out here because people are getting away with too much. It is very disheartening, to say the least.

But, Im the one being unneighborly because I want to use my property for what I care about. 🙄

Its almost as if only certain people have a right to enjoy their own property. I think maybe my neighbor can start asking me for permission to use his loud motor bike. Not really, I don't need to micromanage my neighbor or police my community.

There are many HOAs to choose from. Its unfortunate that people who enjoy that lifestyle dont live in them.
 
The first thing you need to understand is "Usufruct".

Simplistically, the right to enjoy the use and advantages of another's property short of the destruction or waste of its substance. Its positively medieval.

**YOU** do NOT own your land. Don't believe me? Skip out on your property taxes for a while. Erect a cell phone tower (or taller) without permission. Start mining for minerals with a deep shaft.

You have the use of the thing, in perpetuity, subject to the whims of your local lord, and contingent upon paying rent (taxes) to said lord for the land's use.

The Lord in question, rather than being some individual, is a legal fiction - the governmental subdivisions who have jurisdiction over your use. Locally, that means state, county, and sometimes municipality. In this case, your rights to put the land to use with the raising of poultry are limited by a noise ordinance giving nod to "nuisance" law, another legal fiction of rather amorphous edges with origins also in the middle ages - about 800 years back +/-.

Now, the lord superior (in this case, the US Gov't) has said that local nuisance law can not be used to prevent legitimate agriculture (look up "Right to Farm") and many States say the same - but what little you have shared of your local zoning suggests to me that your property is zoned residential, where legitimate bona fide commercial agricultural activities are prohibited. Meaning, therefore, that your complaint against your neighbor is not for their intrusion upon your rights, by invocation of the noise (nuisance) ordinance against your roosters, but rather their invocation of THEIR RIGHTS provided them by your local government - a right to be free to use their (rented) land in usufruct without disturbance from activities you conduct on your own property held in usufruct.

In short, your local lord has set forth rules for how the peasantry must behave in the use of its lands. You don't have the right you claim - in spite of past use, while the neighbors are exercising their seemingly legal prerogative, for whatever reason - motives don't matter.

Sorry to be the bearer of ill tiding - I'm all for telling neighbors where to stick it when they intrude upon my uses of my property - but as described, you don't have the permission of your lord (not your neighbors) to do as you desire.
 
A "covenant", btw, is a legal impairment of title. So while it may not be found in a collection of generally applicable municipal ordinances (or County, or State, or whatever), it is enforceable, and is recorded. You just need to know where to look. It is possible to scrub a covenant from legal title, but it takes time and effort. LOTS of time.

If you want to continue to keep roosters in the future, you and like minded neighbors should work with your local Gov't to clarify ordinances and memorialize in the law an allowance for roosters with limited subject to nuisance, then take all necessary actions in the future to protect your zoning.

/edit and, even if successful, eventually, that won't be enough.

"Eminent Domain" - your Lord can take "your" lands (your usufruct) from you even if you pay all your taxes and use it as directed, and give it to another in usufruct for nothing more than an asserted public use - which in the case of Kelo vs New London can be as simple as the promise of more taxes, even if those taxes aren't going to be paid by the entity to whom your usufruct is transferred. Some States have recently made that more difficult, others have made it easier.
 
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Its interesting how many people jump to the conclusion that the rooster owners are the bad neighbor.

I have bought my neighbor gifts, shared tools, mowed his lawn, offered to gravel part of his driveway, etc..... And he just moved in.

He moved out of an apartment because he said he was tired of his neighbors "being in his business." Since moving in he has complained about where I have my garden, my chickens, and told me we need more regulations out here because people are getting away with too much. It is very disheartening, to say the least.

But, Im the one being unneighborly because I want to use my property for what I care about. 🙄

Its almost as if only certain people have a right to enjoy their own property. I think maybe my neighbor can start asking me for permission to use his loud motor bike. Not really, I don't need to micromanage my neighbor or police my community.

There are many HOAs to choose from. Its unfortunate that people who enjoy that lifestyle dont live in them.
I don't know if you mean on this thread about the rooster owners are bad neighbors. If it's allowed, then it's fine. Especially if you had the rooster before the complaining neighbor moved in.

It is a common complaint of people who have lived in areas that get developed around them that the people who move to the area, because they like the characteristics of the area, then go about changing it/or trying to change it to be like the area from which they moved.
 

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