Mycoplasma Gallisepticum / CRD / Respiratory (gurgling/rales when breathing; no other symptoms)

[MadHens]

Yes, it's Aureomycin at TSC. Dawg35 also recommended a cocktail of Denagard and Oxine.

No, the Tylan isn't hard to inject, just barely into the muscle of the breast (just off of their keel) and you're done. But you've got young birds and I don't know the 1/2cc would be too much. You can also administer it orally, though. With the Tylan, treatment is 5 days, max. I'm not sure about the Aureomycin, Denagard or Oxine. Prolonged treatment definitely isn't a great idea, though. You can start killing fauna that's supposed to be present and building up resistance to certain meds in other organisms that are present.

Keeping chickens isn't hard, technically...until something goes wrong (but that's a risk we take with anything we try).

Yeah, stuff can and will happen, just like dogs and cats will eventually get fleas, ticks, worms, etc.

If it is MG, quarantine may not have worked. Apparently some birds are just don't readily show any symptoms, even under stress. It can be hit or miss. But that's apparently why keeping all one age/batch of chickens together for their lives is best for biosecurity.

I'm really hoping we can get our bird well, too, but then I'm wondering if we really do need to cull and start over (which I don't WANT to do, but what is wanted and what is needed aren't necessarily the same thing

Thank you, RedDrgn. I wonder too if I should just cut my losses as I have only had these chicks 3 weeks, and I'm getting more in the middle of June from a hatchery (where I got the first batch - second batch I got from a feed store, which is where I suspect this whole thing started). The problem I have, is that I have 3 children who have named these chicks and I don't know if I can bring myself to cull them. Although, I have told them, that sometimes you have to make hard decisions to save the rest of the flock...

 

[dawg53]

QC Supply carries it. It's not cheap but will last a long time.

 

[MadHens]

QC Supply carries it. It's not cheap but will last a long time.

Thank you! What is oxine and does QC Supply have that too?

 

[1muttsfan]

If you want to be sure about having MG, testing is easily done via a throat swab - at least you would be sure what you are dealing with. You might also check out Farmerboy16 and his thread about dealing with MG not once but Twice in his flock.

 

[RedDrgn]

Thank you, RedDrgn. I wonder too if I should just cut my losses as I have only had these chicks 3 weeks, and I'm getting more in the middle of June from a hatchery (where I got the first batch - second batch I got from a feed store, which is where I suspect this whole thing started). The problem I have, is that I have 3 children who have named these chicks and I don't know if I can bring myself to cull them. Although, I have told them, that sometimes you have to make hard decisions to save the rest of the flock...

Ok, so having read through all of the posted I quoted in this response, I called my husband in tears and recommended we kill six chickens tonight. Kill now or kill later, I figured the sooner, the better. He told me to wait, to let him call the vet and present all of this additional information that we'd found out. I said alright and waited. So he just called back; the veterinarian he's been consulting with is Dr. Mike Gast of Blue Ridge Veterinary Associates who says he's been raising chickens (in flocks around 200) for the past 30 years....and dang if the guy isn't patient:

My DH said that while he appreciated Dr. Gast's initial recommendation regarding treating with the chlortetracycline, everything he's been reading and finding out (through me) was indicating that it'd be best if we just culled the whole flock. Dr. Gast asked if we showed our birds, transported them off of our property, were located near any other flocks of chickens, were planing to ever sell/trade any of our birds/hatching eggs/chicks. Of course, the answer is no, though we had considered raising chicks for ourselves as stock replacement down the road. His response was that while culling would certainly eliminate the problem, it was extreme and he didn't recommend it.

He again recommended treating with chlortetracycline as per its labeling instructions for use in water for 14 days (noting that symptoms should subside within 2-3 days and to contact him immediately if they do not); complete 14 day treatment even if symptoms subside before that (that's true for ALL antibiotics course, though). Egg withdrawal for the treatment period plus 10 days.

He said not to make plans to show, sell/trade or move any of our birds (unless to a vet and back) or hatching eggs. He recommended not hatching/raising our own chicks (we're ok with that) and to run the full chlortetracycline treatment whenever similar symptoms occur in any of our flock. Whenever we got to the point where we wanted to add birds, either add chicks/chickens vaccinated for MG (which we can apparently have done at that vet office), add unvaccinated chicks/chickens and accept that they will become infected as well, or wait until our current flock dies off of its own accord, clean coop/run and allow to sit for 7 days before introducing new birds. If we go with vaccinated chicks, we break the cycle the same as if we kill them all now.

He also said that over 50% of egg-laying stock in the US are carriers of MG, that most hatcheries selling chicks do not offer a vaccine for this (looks like that's true from my research) and should, and that chickens are susceptible to multiple strains of MG and if you keep your chickens outside, you risk exposure to both (since some wild birds are apparently also susceptible to strains more commonly found in domestic flocks). So it goes both ways and symptoms and carrier status are the same.

Some birds will be asymptomatic carriers all of their lives. Some may exhibit symptoms when stressed (and he noted that our having the bad case of bumblefoot was likely our stressor causing the problem in the wellie), and some may never exhibit symptoms more than once. We should always treat at the first sign of symptoms, but otherwise do nothing more than routine flock management and preventative care (checking for disease/pests that can cause stress). MG isn't what will kill them, apparently. It's the potential secondary infections that it may make them more susceptible to when it rears its head.
...............

So with all of that and after a loooong talk with my husband, it looks like we'll remain an isolated flock and keep them. If anyone actually shows poor quality of life or signs of suffering that we cannot fix in 24-48 hours, we absolutely will cull. Otherwise, we'll carry on with them as we have been (though will definitely start checking feet more often, whether they like it or not!).

When it comes times to consider adding to the flock, we'll either cull them all then or add only vaccinated chicks (we vaccinated this flock with pretty much everything available except MG and cocci - live and learn).

You all have to keep in mind one thing about all these antibiotics you are using or are planning to use. The mycoplasma diseases WILL eventually build resistance to whatever you give them, this includes; tylan, baytril, aureomycin, gallimycin, tetracyclines, duramycin etc etc etc...
There isnt any resistance to denagard and no egg withdrawal. There is an initial treatment dose with denagard and a monthly preventative dose to keep the symptoms in check. Please read the link I provided and google 'denagard' for more info.

I'm only a relative n00b with chickens, but antibiotics I know well from work. All antibiotics will challenge whatever agent they are "killing" to become resistant. Denagard is no exception. It's a broad spectrum antibiotic and can lead to resistance. The "preventative dose" recommendation on their site is also worrisome to me; treating without symptoms is another good way to prime organisms for resistance. I read the link posted and Googled and everything I've found about it comes straight from Denagard's producer, Novartis. Does anybody have any good third party information about it? I have a serious issue with any medication that claims a no withdrawal period, especially an antibiotic administered internally - does it really leave no traces in meat/eggs? Additionally, the only farm supply stores I have anywhere nearby are TSC and Southern States, both of which told me they don't carry Denagard. I really don't want to wait a few days to treat.

If you want to be sure about having MG, testing is easily done via a throat swab - at least you would be sure what you are dealing with. You might also check out Farmerboy16 and his thread about dealing with MG not once but Twice in his flock.

I tried searching it and didn't come up with anything regarding that username and MG. Can you point in the right direction or link the thread? I'm certainly interested! Also, while my DH's and my work schedules don't jive with the vet's for the next two days, I do intend to do that (assuming it's not ridiculously expensive...things are tight for us right now).

 

[dawg53]

There is no resistance to denagard. That's why there's a continued monthly preventative dose to keep the disease in check for the rest of the birds' lives...no other antibiotic can do that. Here's a link to QC Supply and reviews of the product.
http://www.qcsupply.com/denagard-liquid-concentrate-novartis.html
There is no egg withdrawal, there is a 2 or 3 day slaughter withdrawal in poultry.
Vaccinations against MG are guesswork depending on the strain. Some work, some dont. Then there is also MS and MM.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps034
Congratulations on your decision to cull, that's the best thing. Good luck.

 

[featherz]

I'm only a relative n00b with chickens, but antibiotics I know well from work. All antibiotics will challenge whatever agent they are "killing" to become resistant. Denagard is no exception. It's a broad spectrum antibiotic and can lead to resistance. The "preventative dose" recommendation on their site is also worrisome to me; treating without symptoms is another good way to prime organisms for resistance. I read the link posted and Googled and everything I've found about it comes straight from Denagard's producer, Novartis. Does anybody have any good third party information about it? I have a serious issue with any medication that claims a no withdrawal period, especially an antibiotic administered internally - does it really leave no traces in meat/eggs? Additionally, the only farm supply stores I have anywhere nearby are TSC and Southern States, both of which told me they don't carry Denagard. I really don't want to wait a few days to treat.

I can't answer the question about resistance (as a nurse, I too wonder how it chemically ends up with no resistance if people are giving it monthly), but I can answer the other issue about the egg withdrawal - or at least I can try. I think the issue with the egg withdrawal is that there is no human equivalent antibiotic to denagard (unlike giving tetracyclines, sulfa, etc). Therefore any residue that may come out in the egg should have no harmful or resistance effects on humans.

 

[RedDrgn]

There is no resistance to denagard. That's why there's a continued monthly preventative dose to keep the disease in check for the rest of the birds' lives...no other antibiotic can do that. Here's a link to QC Supply and reviews of the product.
http://www.qcsupply.com/denagard-liquid-concentrate-novartis.html
There is no egg withdrawal, there is a 2 or 3 day slaughter withdrawal in poultry.
Vaccinations against MG are guesswork depending on the strain. Some work, some dont. Then there is also MS and MM.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps034
Congratulations on your decision to cull, that's the best thing. Good luck.

QC Supply rehashes the statements made about the product on the Denegard and Novartis website.
I still haven't seen any third-party research/information indicating that there is no resistance to it. You may well be correct that there is not, especially since it's a newer antibiotic, but I need more than what the product page/manufacturer state about their own product. Again, all antibiotics will challenge agents to survive. Unless an antibiotic can exterminate 100% of an agent, it's only a matter of time until a resistant strain develops. So every time you dose with an antibiotic, you're running that risk. Every time you don't complete a full treatment, use the wrong antibiotic, or use an antibiotic in an ineffectual way (e.g. without symptoms or in an attempt to treat a virus), that risk greatly increases. That's why we have super bugs like MRSA, VRE and GAS (just to name a few of the more media-popular ones); they're most commonly found in hospitals because that's where a lot of bacteria end up (sick people) and that's where those bacteria are constantly challenged by antibiotics and anti-microbial compounds.

On top of that, the vet we spoke with noted that MG is apparently fantastic at mutating and surviving, so good that it's able to hide from the chicken's own immune system (which is why they are forever carriers once infected - no antibiotic will wipe it out 100% and the chicken's own immune system won't pick up the slack because it can't "see" it).

Vaccinations aren't guesswork if you know what you've got and what strain, and I fully intend to find that out. If a vaccine for what we've got doesn't exist or doesn't have good efficacy, then we won't be adding any birds down the road until these all die or we cull at the end of their "useful lives".

Umm, but we didn't make the decision to cull at this time; I said that we were going to take the vet's advice and not cull. We don't show our birds (and aren't going to), we don't trade or transport our birds (and aren't going to other than potentially to the veterinarian), our flock interacts with no other flocks (and won't ever be allowed to, not that there are any around or we would have allowed it if there were), we'll continue to wash/change clothes whenever interacting with our flock/any other flock/bird (and we must be doing something right there because , we won't distribute hatching eggs/hatch our own eggs, and we will not introduce birds to our flock unless they are vaccinated against the strain our flock is infected with. If any of our birds get sick to the point of a reduced quality of life and do not recover (or get worse), then I will cull without hesitation. I would never let an animal suffer for my own sake, nor ever have in the past.

I can't answer the question about resistance (as a nurse, I too wonder how it chemically ends up with no resistance if people are giving it monthly), but I can answer the other issue about the egg withdrawal - or at least I can try. I think the issue with the egg withdrawal is that there is no human equivalent antibiotic to denagard (unlike giving tetracyclines, sulfa, etc). Therefore any residue that may come out in the egg should have no harmful or resistance effects on humans.

The "should" makes me wonder, though. I came across a note about it not having any effect in humans, too when I looked around some more last evening. I'm just surprised at how little information is out there about it. Is it really that unstudied/unknown? But then, that's one thing I've learned (and have been shocked by) since getting chickens. You can pick up just about any antibiotic you want at your local farm/feed store, and what you can't find there you can order online. So long as it's listed for "animals" you can apparently buy and use at will, any way that you want.....and a lot of it is the same stuff that is used for humans. However, when it's labeled for humans, it's prescription only and no over-the-counter stuff. It doesn't make any sense!

 

[Peaches Lee]

Very interesting thread. I had a Golden Comet hen display a "kazoo" like sound and have been trying to figure out the problem. She has presented very similar to your hen, no ocular or nasal discharge, bright comb, normal droppings, laid two normal eggs, eating and drinking normal, basically not acting "sick" at all. Her kazoo noise has since ceased, I thought maybe a possible crop impaction as she was given a bunch of pellets instead of mash, but I don't know. I was thinking about sending her back out into the flock but reading this, I'm not sure what to do now...sorry for my ramblings--good luck to you and thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

[dawg53]

I recommend you call Novartis and talk to them yourself if you wish. I take no stock in any vet that doesnt recommend culling an infected mycoplasma flock. That is simply defeating the purpose of eliminating the disease and risking other clean flocks with exposure. He is actually advocating the perpetuation of the disease.