Mycoplasma Gallisepticum / CRD / Respiratory (gurgling/rales when breathing; no other symptoms)

[MadHens]

RedDrgn, I appreciate the time you and your husband have taken to make a well-informed decision. I'm leaning in your direction, somewhat, in that I'm willing to try another antibiotic before I make the final decision to cull. What makes my situation a little different is that my 6 chicks are much younger (only 3 weeks old and this started when they were 2 weeks old). My "wrench" is that I'm expecting another 9 chicks in the mail mid-June. So, if I keep my first batch of chicks (who will surely be carriers of whatever it is they have), when it comes time to integrate the two flocks, my second batch of chickens will (I'm assuming) become infected. So, do I cut my losses now and just add a few more chicks to my June order to make up for the ones I may need to cull? I keep thinking about all the future issues I may have with potential illnesses and the effect on laying eggs (which is the reason we wanted chickens in the first place!). On the other hand, according to what the vet your husband spoke with said, a significant percentage of birds (wild or otherwise) may already be carriers, and there's no guarantee that even if you cull, you may be dealing with it again in a future flock anyway.

Dawg53, I respect your knowledge and opinions also. It is obvious that you are well-educated when it comes to chicken health/management. I am grateful to anyone who shares his/her experience and I guess the best we can do is take the information, carefully consider our options, and then decide what's best for our animals and ourselves.

 

[speckledhen]

Very interesting thread. I had a Golden Comet hen display a "kazoo" like sound and have been trying to figure out the problem. She has presented very similar to your hen, no ocular or nasal discharge, bright comb, normal droppings, laid two normal eggs, eating and drinking normal, basically not acting "sick" at all. Her kazoo noise has since ceased, I thought maybe a possible crop impaction as she was given a bunch of pellets instead of mash, but I don't know. I was thinking about sending her back out into the flock but reading this, I'm not sure what to do now...sorry for my ramblings--good luck to you and thanks for sharing your experiences.

Your hen may have had something temporarily stuck in her windpipe or a blown air sac. I had that happen once and it scared me so much, I actually called someone I trust completely, Pine Grove (William) in south GA. He listened to her over the phone and offered those two options, said the way it came on, as she was straining to lay her first post-molt egg, sounded like one of those two things. Sure enough, the next day she had worked it out and was fine.

As far as Denagard, it isn't an option I would choose personally since I would cull for respiratory illness anyway. It's expensive and you have to give it every month, plus they're still carriers. I'm not setting myself up for a permanent treatment of a sick flock, JMHO.

 

[RedDrgn]

I recommend you call Novartis and talk to them yourself if you wish. I take no stock in any vet that doesnt recommend culling an infected mycoplasma flock. That is simply defeating the purpose of eliminating the disease and risking other clean flocks with exposure. He is actually advocating the perpetuation of the disease.

He is not advocating the perpetuation of a disease; note what I said about bio-security measures. He listened to what the purpose of our flock was and how we used/planned to use them and said that while culling would eliminate it (potentially only temporarily), it was extreme in our case and unless we changed the plans for our flock, unnecessary. He also reiterated, repeatedly, that culling them would not permanently eliminate our problems with this disease because it's endemic in our area (which I confirmed with our local Dept of Ag office). It's common, any chicken we ever get that are not vaccinated for a particular strain stands the chance of picking it up, and not even commercial farms (for broilers or layers) cull if this disease crops up in their birds because its not economically feasible to do so. This disease and others falling into the CRD category are one of the biggest reasons commercial facilities want to keep their birds inside, full time, all of their lives.

There is no way in **** I will ever risk infecting another chicken with my birds, but like my feline leukemia positive cat (who is going on five years old and is perfectly healthy, when most vets told us he wouldn't last a year), if symptoms can be controlled without degrading the animal's quality of life, then live.

RedDrgn, I appreciate the time you and your husband have taken to make a well-informed decision. I'm leaning in your direction, somewhat, in that I'm willing to try another antibiotic before I make the final decision to cull. What makes my situation a little different is that my 6 chicks are much younger (only 3 weeks old and this started when they were 2 weeks old). My "wrench" is that I'm expecting another 9 chicks in the mail mid-June. So, if I keep my first batch of chicks (who will surely be carriers of whatever it is they have), when it comes time to integrate the two flocks, my second batch of chickens will (I'm assuming) become infected. So, do I cut my losses now and just add a few more chicks to my June order to make up for the ones I may need to cull? I keep thinking about all the future issues I may have with potential illnesses and the effect on laying eggs (which is the reason we wanted chickens in the first place!). On the other hand, according to what the vet your husband spoke with said, a significant percentage of birds (wild or otherwise) may already be carriers, and there's no guarantee that even if you cull, you may be dealing with it again in a future flock anyway.

Dawg53, I respect your knowledge and opinions also. It is obvious that you are well-educated when it comes to chicken health/management. I am grateful to anyone who shares his/her experience and I guess the best we can do is take the information, carefully consider our options, and then decide what's best for our animals and ourselves.

Unfortunately, the disease apparently has a much higher morbidity and mortality rate in chicks.

As it's my call with my flock, it's your call with yours. In your position, I'd be leaning hard on the cull side what I had now (assuming the new chicks you're expecting are coming from somewhere that can certify they don't already have the disease or anything like it). Otherwise, yes, your next batch will pick it up from your first and then the whole flock's got it. Honesty, it hasn't even affected laying in our flock. The bird with the sniffles laid one soft-shell egg since she exhibited sniffles and a hard shelled, normal egg since...will see what's waiting when I get home tonight. The rest of the flock, who probably has it, too, are all laying normal; 5 hens total and 4/5 eggs per day like nothing's going on.

Then again, yes, it is a common disease. Yes, if your chickens are going to be outside, then they may all end up with it anyway and in the end you'd be right back where you started. It's tough. Everyone here has offered lots of different perspectives (all of which I appreciate, and all of which made me think and think hard), as has the vet and my husband and even a neighbor who keeps a lot of exotic birds (indoors only). It'd be so much simpler if it wasn't easy to run across and really made the birds very very ill. Simple decision then to cull and end suffering at that point.

All I can say is weigh your options and choose what will suit you and your birds, best. If you keep any infected birds, take care to absolutely not share.

Your hen may have had something temporarily stuck in her windpipe or a blown air sac. I had that happen once and it scared me so much, I actually called someone I trust completely, Pine Grove (William) in south GA. He listened to her over the phone and offered those two options, said the way it came on, as she was straining to lay her first post-molt egg, sounded like one of those two things. Sure enough, the next day she had worked it out and was fine.

As far as Denagard, it isn't an option I would choose personally since I would cull for respiratory illness anyway. It's expensive and you have to give it every month, plus they're still carriers. I'm not setting myself up for a permanent treatment of a sick flock, JMHO.

She was sounding better last night, but it wasn't gone. Is there any way to confirm a blown air sac (sure sounds awful!).

If our wellie doesn't improve in the next few days, we'll cull her. If anyone keeps having recurring symptoms, we'll cull them. We have no plans for permanently/on-going treatment. They don't deserve that.

 

[speckledhen]

The only way I know of is to search for air trapped underneath the skin in areas where the air sacs are located (diagrams are online). We could not find any trapped air on that hen so decided she had something stuck in her windpipe, which was apparently true, since in a few hours, she was fine. I've never heard that "air escaping a balloon/kazoo" sound before that day or since and we have never had any contagious respiratory illness in the flock here.

Pine Grove is an NPIP tester for the state, has been raising/breeding chickens for over 50 years and has probably forgotten more than the sum total of what most of BYC knows, which is why he is the one I go to when I cannot figure something out. A blown air sac had never occurred to me, but in the future, it's in my scope of knowledge, thanks to William.

 

[Erica]

Hi RedDrgn, I hope you don't mind one more set of thoughts on this (I know you're thought and read heaps).

I just want to say that I've kept birds on partial free range for at least 10 years, and only ever seen MG when I've brought it in on a purchased bird that turned out to be a carrier. I've gone so many years without MG *at all* (never a sick bird, at least nothing respiratory) that I simply can't believe it's commonly transferred from the environment. It can be carried by rats, and I know there are rats around here, but they don't seem to be a vector for it in my backyard. Incidentally vets have told me it's 'endemic' here too.

My worry would be (and it's just my worry, I haven't read this anywhere) that keeping MG carriers long term may cause it to become endemic in your local area (i.e. your property and neighbours) because of vectors like rats. In other words I'd worry that the longer the birds are there, the more chance the disease will spread from the environment to any new birds (or for that matter to wild birds). I doubt this is the kind of qualm one should choose to cull for, but I feel its a question.

Sorry to add to the 'cull' side of things, and by all means listen to your vet, who sounds well versed in the issue, at least from a veterinary perspective.

All the best with your present flock.

Erica

 

[Peaches Lee]

SpeckledHen--thank you, I didn't realize that such things could happen (blown air sac). I went into a full state of panic, it's sad that chicken diseases are so serious. She is acting very normal, I felt her crop and could feel what felt like grit, but maybe it was indeed the layer pellets that she gorged on and did get trapped.

RedDrgn--thank you for letting me hijack your thread.

 

[MadHens]

RedDrgn - any changes in your Welsummer since yesterday? I went out and bought a powdered form of chlortetracycline and mixed it in with their drinking water. It hasn't quite been 24 hours since they started drinking it. My chick that started sneezing a week ago is still sneezing (she was the second one to get sick; the first one seems fine). A third chick started making some sneezing sounds within the last day or two, and I have a fourth who I don't think is sneezing, but she's doing that weird yawn/open beak thing every now and then. Last night I told my husband that I switched the antibiotic and I wanted to cancel the order for the second batch of chicks we're expecting mid-June. I also mentioned that if we don't cancel the order, we should seriously consider culling this flock of six. His opinion is, is that I shouldn't be giving them any more antibiotics and just let nature take its course (survival of the fittest, etc.) and just go ahead and keep our order for the chicks arriving mid-June. He feels that since we wouldn't be mixing the two flocks any time soon that it will be ok with whichever birds survive this and the new flock. I tried to explain the whole "carrier" thing and how that probably wouldn't be a good idea, but he just wants to go ahead Very frustrating to have differences of opinion on what to do.

The other interesting piece of information (and this may have nothing to do with why my chicks got sick), but I noticed maybe a week or so ago, the bag that the chick starter was in, had some clumps of "stuff" in it, that I just threw away when I found it. It looked kind of dusty and lint-like (beigy/gray color). The feed didn't smell bad or anything, but I did bring the bag back to the store and showed them a piece of what I had found and they had never seen anything like that before (it was Blue Seal Chick Starter medicated feed). One of the people looking at my "sample" saw a bug in it. They gave me a new bag. I wonder if the feed had anything to do with the illness. The only other thing that I can attribute the illness to is the introduction of the birds I bought from the feed store during the second week (I didn't quarantine them). I could drive myself crazy wondering how this happened and what I'm dealing with exactly.

 

[RedDrgn]

The only way I know of is to search for air trapped underneath the skin in areas where the air sacs are located (diagrams are online). We could not find any trapped air on that hen so decided she had something stuck in her windpipe, which was apparently true, since in a few hours, she was fine. I've never heard that "air escaping a balloon/kazoo" sound before that day or since and we have never had any contagious respiratory illness in the flock here.

Pine Grove is an NPIP tester for the state, has been raising/breeding chickens for over 50 years and has probably forgotten more than the sum total of what most of BYC knows, which is why he is the one I go to when I cannot figure something out. A blown air sac had never occurred to me, but in the future, it's in my scope of knowledge, thanks to William.

I did some investigation on that end and we checked her out and didn't find any evidence of trapped air. Since she's apparently responding to the meds, I'm thinking that a blown air sac isn't what caused this. The gurgling/rattling she constantly exhibited upon discovery on day one didn't persist beyond day one and is now gone. I'm not sure how quick an air sac issue would rectify itself, though. It's certain not an issue I came upon as a possible source or problem, though, but like you, I'll definitely keep that in mind in the future! I guess there's no end to things with the potential to afflict flocks.

Hi RedDrgn, I hope you don't mind one more set of thoughts on this (I know you're thought and read heaps).

I just want to say that I've kept birds on partial free range for at least 10 years, and only ever seen MG when I've brought it in on a purchased bird that turned out to be a carrier. I've gone so many years without MG *at all* (never a sick bird, at least nothing respiratory) that I simply can't believe it's commonly transferred from the environment. It can be carried by rats, and I know there are rats around here, but they don't seem to be a vector for it in my backyard. Incidentally vets have told me it's 'endemic' here too.

My worry would be (and it's just my worry, I haven't read this anywhere) that keeping MG carriers long term may cause it to become endemic in your local area (i.e. your property and neighbours) because of vectors like rats. In other words I'd worry that the longer the birds are there, the more chance the disease will spread from the environment to any new birds (or for that matter to wild birds). I doubt this is the kind of qualm one should choose to cull for, but I feel its a question.

Sorry to add to the 'cull' side of things, and by all means listen to your vet, who sounds well versed in the issue, at least from a veterinary perspective.

All the best with your present flock.

Erica

Honestly, I appreciate every and any insight/perspective/comment on this; I don't care which side of the fence it's on or whether it's remains up on the rail, yet.

I believe it and we raised that issue with the vet as well, which is when he said that it was endemic to our area (mid-Atlantic; though found worldwide) and pointed out that culling probably won't permanently rid us of the disease unless we keep chickens indoors full time. In my hunt across the web, for supporting/refuting documentation, that appears to be true. House finches, gold finches, grosbeaks, and titmice appear to be the most common carriers in our area, and minus the grosbeaks (which we only see around our property for a few weeks in the spring) all of those are regulars on our property. I've even caught titmice in the run snagging a piece of scratch a few times and our chickens do end up going after the seed under the bird feeders (ours and the neighbor's) that we have on our property now and again, with wild birds above them on the feeders and some of the larger ones (like doves and crows) on the ground nearby. Yes, I could get rid of the feeders, but I can't make my neighbors get rid of theirs or net our whole property to keep wild birds out. Additionally, as both my reading and the vet mentioned, some birds are carriers and through their lives never display symptoms. You wouldn't know they carried anything at all unless you got them tested, which most people don't do because they have no reason to suspect anything.

As you mentioned birds from other flocks and we have the roo we introduced almost three months ago, yeah, it could have come from him. But through the four hour drive in a box when we brought him home, quarantine alone in the garage, introduction to the flock....oh, he was stressed, and he still hasn't so much as sneezed in our presence. On the other hand, when our five girls were chicks, I remember a stint where the same wellie we're treating now had a horrible/sour odor about her breath for about 3 weeks when she was around 5 weeks old. She never acted sick (and neither did any of the others), and we thought it was a sour crop, though she never missed a beat in eating/drinking/defecating. We treated it like sour crop for the first week, but it never made a difference, so we just observed and after another few weeks, it went away. Apparently, such odors are also potential symptoms of MG (though no such odor has been detected now), so was she infected then? We started taking them outside (supervised) at 1 week.

That's why I feel like I'm being crushed between a rock and a hard place. I don't know which came first, the chickens or the disease; the hens or the roo? Who got who? If I could answer that question, this whole thing would be a case already closed. Chickens first = cull; wild birds first = have to deal with it for as long as we decide to have chickens (cull any with chronic symptoms).

SpeckledHen--thank you, I didn't realize that such things could happen (blown air sac). I went into a full state of panic, it's sad that chicken diseases are so serious. She is acting very normal, I felt her crop and could feel what felt like grit, but maybe it was indeed the layer pellets that she gorged on and did get trapped.

RedDrgn--thank you for letting me hijack your thread.

No problem and have at it.

RedDrgn - any changes in your Welsummer since yesterday? I went out and bought a powdered form of chlortetracycline and mixed it in with their drinking water. It hasn't quite been 24 hours since they started drinking it. My chick that started sneezing a week ago is still sneezing (she was the second one to get sick; the first one seems fine). A third chick started making some sneezing sounds within the last day or two, and I have a fourth who I don't think is sneezing, but she's doing that weird yawn/open beak thing every now and then. Last night I told my husband that I switched the antibiotic and I wanted to cancel the order for the second batch of chicks we're expecting mid-June. I also mentioned that if we don't cancel the order, we should seriously consider culling this flock of six. His opinion is, is that I shouldn't be giving them any more antibiotics and just let nature take its course (survival of the fittest, etc.) and just go ahead and keep our order for the chicks arriving mid-June. He feels that since we wouldn't be mixing the two flocks any time soon that it will be ok with whichever birds survive this and the new flock. I tried to explain the whole "carrier" thing and how that probably wouldn't be a good idea, but he just wants to go ahead Very frustrating to have differences of opinion on what to do.

The other interesting piece of information (and this may have nothing to do with why my chicks got sick), but I noticed maybe a week or so ago, the bag that the chick starter was in, had some clumps of "stuff" in it, that I just threw away when I found it. It looked kind of dusty and lint-like (beigy/gray color). The feed didn't smell bad or anything, but I did bring the bag back to the store and showed them a piece of what I had found and they had never seen anything like that before (it was Blue Seal Chick Starter medicated feed). One of the people looking at my "sample" saw a bug in it. They gave me a new bag. I wonder if the feed had anything to do with the illness. The only other thing that I can attribute the illness to is the introduction of the birds I bought from the feed store during the second week (I didn't quarantine them). I could drive myself crazy wondering how this happened and what I'm dealing with exactly.

Yes, and she is doing better. I updated the OP with the latest (and will continue to do so as I have more information to share).

Ugh, I know...so many questions and very few, definitive answers.

If it's the feed and you got new feed, then you should know very shortly (sick chicks should improve pretty quickly and no one else should get sick). I am wondering if the beige/gray stuff may have been diatomaceous earth (DE) or something similar, which is often added to foods as to keep them dry and keep pests out; it may have just been a clump or two that didn't mix well.

Anyway, if you started them on the chlorotetracycline, then at least complete the treatment. Quitting antibiotics before the recommended treatment period (minimum of 7 days for this stuff, according to package if you've got the same stuff I found) lends itself to promoting those resistant bugs I mentioned in previous replies. Your husband kind of has a point, those strong enough to survive will....but if they have MG or a related CRD, they're also carriers, but the significance of that is one of the main questions that all of this revolves around.

Are your chicks doing any better today? I apologize for not responding at all yesterday. Ended up working out of another facility yesterday and wasn't able to get anywhere near a computer all day (and my phone hates this website).

 

[MadHens]

RedDrgn, I appreciate your updates. You and your husband have your hands full right now, esp. with having to take your chicken to the vet. I called my local vet the other day, and they charge $100 to have a consult with the avian specialist! Nevermind any testing they might do! There is a university in my state that has a veterinary department, so I may be able to get some answers there.

My chicks are doing fine. They are on day 2 of the new antibiotic. I will definitely keep them on it for about 7 days. My second chick that got sick was still sneezing this morning (it's been one full week that she's been sneezing). I don't hear as much sneezing this evening. The third one that I think I mentioned yesterday is sneezing a little bit, but not much. The one (a white leghorn) that was doing the yawning thing yesterday did it a little bit tonight, but I don't see any other symptoms with her. There are still 2 chicks (out of 6) that have not had any symptoms whatsoever. I listened to the lungs of the one that has been sneezing for a week, and they sounded o.k. today so maybe it's clearing up. None of them have had any fluid come from the eyes, nose, or beak, and they're all running around, and eating and drinking. I'm feeling more positive today. Once the 7 days runs its course with the second antibiotic, I will not give them anymore antibiotics.

I'm keeping my order for new chicks that will be delivered mid-June. The earliest we would mix the two flocks would be mid to late August. I'm not hatching eggs, nor will these chickens be "show" chickens. If anyone visits me, who also owns chickens, I will certainly warn them about my flock's illness, so they can take appropriate precautions.

I'll keep you updated!

 

[RedDrgn]

RedDrgn, I appreciate your updates. You and your husband have your hands full right now, esp. with having to take your chicken to the vet. I called my local vet the other day, and they charge $100 to have a consult with the avian specialist! Nevermind any testing they might do! There is a university in my state that has a veterinary department, so I may be able to get some answers there.
My chicks are doing fine. They are on day 2 of the new antibiotic. I will definitely keep them on it for about 7 days. My second chick that got sick was still sneezing this morning (it's been one full week that she's been sneezing). I don't hear as much sneezing this evening. The third one that I think I mentioned yesterday is sneezing a little bit, but not much. The one (a white leghorn) that was doing the yawning thing yesterday did it a little bit tonight, but I don't see any other symptoms with her. There are still 2 chicks (out of 6) that have not had any symptoms whatsoever. I listened to the lungs of the one that has been sneezing for a week, and they sounded o.k. today so maybe it's clearing up. None of them have had any fluid come from the eyes, nose, or beak, and they're all running around, and eating and drinking. I'm feeling more positive today. Once the 7 days runs its course with the second antibiotic, I will not give them anymore antibiotics.
I'm keeping my order for new chicks that will be delivered mid-June. The earliest we would mix the two flocks would be mid to late August. I'm not hatching eggs, nor will these chickens be "show" chickens. If anyone visits me, who also owns chickens, I will certainly warn them about my flock's illness, so they can take appropriate precautions.
I'll keep you updated!

You're very welcome, and I just updated with yesterday's vet visit. I just hope that we can get to the bottom of this thing and that whatever we find out will be of use down the road. Like you, we had gotten a strong impression that chickens were easy to keep and very hardy creatures (almost giving the impression of invulnerability, honestly....stupid, I know, but there it is). While they are hardy, they're not invulnerable and to some things, they are very vulnerable. It's just figuring out along the way just what their weaknesses are and defending against them.

Holy crap! $100?!? That is just insane and I don't blame you for forgoing it at this point. Persephone whole trip, including the office visit and the testing, ended up being $35. We weren't charged for any of our phone calls with Dr. Gast and he's been willing to talk and answer questions (and was pleased that we had so many to ask and had been taking the initiative to do some legwork and trying to solve the problem) every time. Is there anywhere else you could try (you never know if you may need someone down the road)?

I hope your chicks continue to do well and do recoup. As with most animals, it's always a good sign if they're still eating and drinking. If I were you, I'd contact wherever you're getting your next batch of chicks from and talk to them about vaccinations and make sure you're covered on that front, if at all possible. I know there has been suspicion and general blow off about some vaccinations, but while they aren't 100% effective, many are very very good. Back to our feline leukemia carrier cat...he's indoors with three leukemia negative cats. Those three get tested (to see if they've picked up the disease) and then vaccinated annually - none of them have contracted the disease in the past 5 years they've all been together and the vaccine is listed as 85% effective.

Yes, please keep us posted on your chickens as well! I know I'd like to hear how they fare.