Nasal Discharge, watery eye, Need Med Help - Good Update

[proctor family coop]

I have posted twice before with a little info on our sick chicken Rook but have some new issues so here goes.

Rook was a 'replacement' chicken for one of the Roos we accidently got from a farm. She was born the same time as the others we have and is the same age about 4m. She is a Rhode Island White.

About 48hrs after we got her she was a little lethargic and I thought she might be depressed and adjusting to new surroundings. It is also quite hot here right now.

Things progressed and she started staying away for the others and then she started keeping one eye closed a lot. I started her on vits and electrolytes as well as yogurt (she also eats her normal pellets and I am putting them in the yogurt). She will eat when I get her out from under the coop and away from the other chickens but generally just ends back under the coop and 'asleep'.

Today I noticed that she now has nasal discharge from her right nostril, the eye she keeps closed is now always closed and when I do get her to open her eye it is red and irritated. The eye has some discharge too as evident by the feathers she is rubbing her eye on. The discharge is clear and I do not know if it smells as I have an incredibly poor sense of smell.

Generally speaking her poo looks normal however there were two poos last week that looked just like intestinal lining discharge not blood.

My biggest question here is does this sound like CRD to people or something else and would Duramycin-10 (tetracycline) help as this is the med that I have on hand?

 

[proctor family coop]

Also should I treat all the chickens as they have been with her some even if they don't have symptoms?

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Could you possibly link your other posts so that I can see what happened there? LIkely they're related but so I want to put together a good flock history to make sure we leave nothing out.

Thank you! I will review both posts and answer after we do our chicken chores.

Hopefully we can all help you.

 

[proctor family coop]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=219113


https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=220338


For more info on our girls we only have four pullets (meaning girls but not laying yet). We got four babies initially from a farm that were all suppose to be pullets however three ended up being roos...what luck!

I took the three roos back to the farm and got three pullets all the same age as the originals and as the one pullet we still have.

The sick one Rook is one of the new chickens. There are no illnesses that I know of from the farm we got her from however I was thinking of calling to see if anything has shown up.

I do not think she has cocci (spelling?) as one of the big signs is ruffled feathers and I also read head tilted to one side which she does not have either one of these things.

When I get her to come out she initially looks normal other than the eye closed and now the nose issue but she then gets 'tired' and hunkers down to 'rest'. And although she did come out some on her own the last two days has not done that today.

Bottom line though is I just don't know and I know the heat is not going to help.

Thanks for any info.

 

[threehorses]

OK, I'm caught up. I'm going to also as you, please, if you can answer a few questions here shortly. But first I wanted to say something about coccidiosis to clear some things up about what one reads, and then how cocci sometimes presents itself in a practical setting - in real life. Because I've often found that these two aren't necessarily exactly the same, and it helps to know both.

First, I think I know the photos of intestinal shedding about which you're talking. Sometimes I have found droppings like that which were coccidiosis - but usually on younger birds, usually in more close conditions, etc. More often coccidiosis presents itself simply as some more consistently runny droppings in a slight case. Some lethargy, possibly weakness (which can appear as a sort of drunken state or inability to walk). It progresses to birds that are laying down, have mucousy diarrhea, and then to blood in the droppings. Then you have a despondent bird that won't respond and eventually dies.

As for blood, I think it's important to note that in coccidiosis (and not many people realize this so please pardon me repeating this if you already know) that blood only shows when the cecum is irritated to that point. But a lack of blood doesn't mean that there's no coccidiosis. Nor does blood in the droppings mean that it's necessarily coccidiosis.

I personally have never seen head tilting in any coccidiosis chicks. Ruffling feathers, yes - that can happen. It doesn't always. But that's a general sign of just about any chicken illness. It depends on the bird.

OK, on your birds, I need to know a few things please. (These questions are generally covered in the sticky https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3569 but I want a little more info.

First, please tell us the approximate ages of the birds and exactly what their diet is. For example, 'around 3 months - eating grower mash, some treats'. Also, what is their environment (run/coop, free-range, run/shelter) and on what ground are they (shavings in coop/dirt run, hay in coop, etc)?

Did you quarantine the new birds for any period of time?
Please verify that you haven't actually treated with anything yet.
If you pick up the bird, does she feel light to you? Does her keel bone stick out - sort of like a Y's bottom portion does - or is it more like a V with the keel bone as the bottom portion and the meat on both sides as the slanting parts of the V?
As for the smell, were there a typical coryza smell (not required but if it's there it does point to coryza) you would smell it, even with a poor sense of smell. Any bubbles in her eyes? IS her tear duct area (her third eye lid) swollen or showing more so than her other side or than the other chickens?

A word about respiratory illnesses. They're not always bacterial. Some are viral (tho less commonly), others can be caused by environment or fungus, and still others can be caused by a deficiency in vitamin A. It's very difficult to tell the difference without a vet doing a test to rule out things like MG/CRD, etc. Or without a vet doing a culture & sensitivity where they culture the secretions from the nares and grow it out, identify it specifically, and tell you exactly what antibiotics to use for that species/strain.

But of course, we don't always get to do that. I'd be remiss if I didn't recommend that if you can to have an avian vet or an extension testor test the bird.

But more practically, let's talk about treatment options.

First, were it CRD (the chronic form of Mycoplasma gallisepticum) it's unlikely that a 'mycin would treat it effectively. Tylan and LS50 (my favorite is the former, injected) are more the type and toughness of antibiotic you'd want. But the very nature of MG/CRD is that it's chronic; birds that recover are carriers, IF they recover, and then being a carrier means that they can relapse - and that they can spread the disease. It's tricky to treat because of that.

There are so many respiratory bacterial illnesses that have these same symptoms and it's hard to tell them apart. Really one has to just try with a "most likely" good antibiotic first if one is pretty sure it's bacteria. If the symptoms don't change, or worsen, over three-four days then likely the bacteria that you have isn't the one that med treats (or it's viral/fungal/environmental or some combination of all of the above). Unfortunately then we usually try another antibiotic.

Were I to choose two antibiotics to try like that, I'd personally choose Tylan first - then Sulmet. Tylan treats MG and MS (related and quite common mycoplasma illness). Sulmet treats pasteurella/cholera and coryza. Sulmet also happens to treat 8/9 species of cocci.

With any respiratory illness, there are supportive issues that I feel are vital to its treatment - no matter what the cause. First vitamins - vitamin A is very important to ocular and respiratory health. It's an oil vitamin, the most often degraded out of feed (and you also don't want to overdose it), and will sometimes manifest itself in clear eye and nose drainage, some cheesy dots on the mucus membranes of the chicken, etc. In any case even if not a vitamin A deficiency, birds with any respiratory symptoms benefit from a boost in vitamin A.

For a bird who isn't showing sure symptoms of vitamin A deficiency but who could use the boost, I like polyvisol baby vitamins, 2-3 drops in the beak (on in a little quickly eaten treat) daily for a week or during medication. Taper off the following week. Walmart's vitamin section has the the non-iron fortified formula which is what you want. All your chickens can have any of the "supportive" measures to help them boost their immunity and possibly reduce the chances of active infection/symptoms.

Second, probiotics - non-medicinal sources of live bacteria (lactobacilli) which colonize the digestive tract of most animals, including our chickens. Whenever there is drainage from any head-sinus, the drainage goes into the digestive tract via the 'choana' (cleft opening in the roof of the chicken's beak). When that happens, it throws the pH and GOOD bacterial flora of the digestive tract off so it's good to replenish that. If you're not using a -mycin or -cycline active-ingredient drug, then you can use plain yogurt as a treat or mixed in with some damp crumbles as the yogurt still contains living L. acidophilis which will colonize the gut. If you are medicating with one of those drugs, use an acidophilis capsule/tablet from the vitamin section of the grocery/druggist. Just crush the tablet or empty the capsule into a tiny bit of damp mash or a quickly eaten treat like the mashed yolk of a boiled egg. Alternately, you could but a prepared probiotic like Probios for livestock from the feedstore (powder is best, paste will work in a pinch).

In all cases, replacing the bacteria will help prevent against secondary yeast/fungi infections and diarrhea that might cause dehydration and a reduction in healing. Especially if you medicate. If so, use daily during medication and every other day for 2 weeks after medicating.

As if that weren't enough, using probiotics early in a suspected (but not yet clear) case of coccidiosis can sometimes turn things around in the bird's favor when combined with making sure that the bird's environment is clean and dry.
Furthermore, in any cases where there are nostril/eye involvement, I personally like to use VetRx (mixed with very hot water - stirred til warm) to swab the nares, under the eyes, all places where the bird puts its face (including under the wing), and in that choana cleft in the roof of the beak. This will fume the bird with safe herbs and help the airways open inside, possiby reducing inflammation, definitely helping with mucus. Birds that can't breathe and aren't comfortable won't heal as well. I use q-tips - a new end for each spot, a totally new q-tip for each bird.

On feeds, because ill birds don't eat well, try making her pellets into crumbles in the blender if she gets reluctant to eat. Again using a damp mash in the morning can stimulate the bird to eat. Mix water with yogurt, mix that with crumbles, let sit 10 minutes til it's damp - not wet.

Separate this hen to treat her. Disinfect all the feeders/waterers as her droplets will be there with possibly infective material. Handle her chores last and make sure the whole family knows not to cross-contaminate. Removing her might allow the other chickens, who might internally be fighting something as well, to not be challenged daily by exposure to the illness. It'll also allow her to rest and not worry about competition for feed, etc. Furthermore it'll allow you to examine her droppings.

As for treating - if you choose to, I would highly recommend the Tylan50 injectable with Sulmet as a back-up plan. It's a wonderful antibiotic to have in the cabinet and you only treat for 3 days. It's very very effective and well respected by many experienced poultrymen (tho it's labeled for cattle/swine, etc).

You can try the duramycin. I just like to hit an illness the first time with something that is strong because I know that long-term medicating is very hard on the bird's system.

This is my advice; I hope it helps. Please feel free to PM me, email me, or ask here if you have any questions on any of the above.

Because this was a lot of info, here's my summary:

Possible treat with a good antibiotic.
DO give probiotics daily for at least a week. Then taper off for 2 weeks.
DO give a vitamin package daily for at least a week.
Consider using VetRx to facilitate breathing/oxygen flow.
DO keep the bird separate.

 

[proctor family coop]

Thanks for all the great information; I appreciate it!

To answer some of your other q's the chicken are about five months old. The have a coop with straw that I put DE in and mix around about every other day or sometimes more and change monthly and clean out. Their run it very large and grass with some dirty for dust bathing (it is what I call "controlled free range" as they have more space then they know what to do with).

I did not quarantine the new bird from the one I already had as they came from the same place and did not really think about it.

She does not seem to have lost weight at all and is still meaty on her chest etc. She also walks around just fine it is just that she seems to get tired easily and will stop and close her eyes and eventually sits down.

Her eye and face are not swollen at all and there is no bubbles it is just watery, she keeps it closed and when she does open the eye it is red and obviously irritated. And I do not smell anything 'bad'. but again that is not a very good reference from me.

All of the other suggestions in regards to vitamins, probiotics etc I am doing and have been doing since Friday. And have been making her a mash from her layer pellets which they just started on and were on starter before that.

Thanks for the info on the meds it was great; I did start her on the Duramycin today as that is what I had on hand. I will see what it does in the next three days and if there is no improvement I will go from there.

I separated her today and cleaned everything really well. Raked and sprayed down the grass areas ect. cleaned the coop.....

We will see I guess and thanks for the info again it was really helpful.

 

[robin416]

Start using an antibiotic eye ointment in that eye. I don't like the "red" you mentioned. The eye itself could be very infected and causing some of the rest of the things you're seeing.

 

[proctor family coop]

Good call thanks

 

[robin416]

This is why I'm not a teacher, I forgot to mention the most obvious thing. Rinse her eye out with sterile saline or with contact lense solution for sensitive eyes.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't recommend using DE that often. You shouldn't have to and if you overapply, it can be irritating to them. The red eye, I agree with robin, sounds more like the eye is irritated. I'd definitely rinse it daily with a good saline solution for eyes from the drug store.

On the Duramycin, don't expect a lot. If it works, that's great. But if it doesn't work, that doesn't mean you're not dealing with the bacteria it's supposed to be good for - it could mean that (like many bacteria) Duramycin just isn't effective for it anymore on its own, or that the dosage you're using is too weak, etc. How many teaspoons are you using per gallon?