New at raising chicks and I have a couple of questions

[Michael Apple]

before i start, i don't believe in modern medicine as much as i maybe should. when you separate out the "good components" you normally don't get everything that's good. i also believe that for every ailment there exists a cure in nature.


Promoting health and survival is not a "belief". Beliefs won't remedy diseases in chickens. The knowledge of proper environment, nutrition, and medicine will.

using acv with chicks can be good or bad. i wont use it unless i have had pasty butt. i will give sugar water for 3 days, acv one dose then a small amount of yogurt. a small amount of sugar, acv or yogurt is good for the chicks, to much of anything is harmful. the sugar water helps keep them from dehydrating, and gives them a small energy boost. the acv aids in absorption. if your having to add vitamins to the water, the acv will make them more available. the yogurt has by far better probiotics than anything on the market, but the calcium in it is a little strong and bad for young cockerel chicks. but the acv aids in dissolving the calcium making it pass through the system easier. (need proof? put an egg in acv for a couple of days and see what happens)

ACV does not eliminate pasty droppings. All chicks experience pastiness as their digestive system develops from the yolk they carry from the egg for the first few days, to the change in diet. If you give sugar water for 3 days, it is no wonder your chicks pasted up. The old method of sugar in the water for newly arrived chicks is to give them an energy boost and encourage hydration for the first hour. Yogurt is NOT to be given to chicks (not just cockerels) as the calcium level is too high. Formulated feeds provide adequate amounts of calcium and phosphorus to prevent deficiencies. When extra calcium is added there is a high risk of visceral gout, nephrosis, calcium deposits in the ureters, Rickets, kidney damage, and ultimately, mortality. if one wants probiotics, they are available without the calcium or lactose, thanks to science.

ACV will not aid absorption of calcium or vitamins simply because it breaks them down quickly. What's to say it isn't depleting the animal of the needed calcium and vitamins? I've actually searched for proof of this notion. None out there. Just claims with no substance.

 

[loveourbirds]

you wont find any scientific proof of acv, yogurt, honey, garlic, or anything along those lines. only testimonials any naturally occurring substance like those can not be patented. im not telling you that they work for all things, but I can tell you that I don't sell any of these substances either. I make no money off of them.
im not trying to tell anyone that im organic. I do use antibiotics from time to time. but you have to realize that antibiotics only combat infection. a healthy bird is less likely to become infected as their immune systems are stronger. also if they are healthy they will recover from wounds faster.

its your choice if you want to use these or not. for caged birds I definatly recommend it.

also, you will find that most people who have tried these methods swear by them as long as they use them for a period of time.

also, remember birds are slightly more acidic than we are at optimum health. if you eat more acid you will become more acidic. a lot of feeds and even a lot of our water is alkaline. im not saying its right for everyone, but can be very beneficial for others.

I do tend to believe in old timer's wisdom, as I work toward self sufficiency. I notice that a lot of the science approved stuff from the past was found later on to do more harm than good.

this is just my position, and is not to be taken as gold advice. you have to find what works for you, in your conditions, with your birds.

 

[Michael Apple]

you wont find any scientific proof of acv, yogurt, honey, garlic, or anything along those lines. only testimonials any naturally occurring substance like those can not be patented. im not telling you that they work for all things, but I can tell you that I don't sell any of these substances either. I make no money off of them.

You are suggesting yogurt for chicks , which contains extra calcium and should not be given for the most obvious reasons recognized by poultry science since the 1930's. You are recommending ACV, a natural antibacterial for pasting which has nothing to do with bacteria, and will only disrupt the developing digestive system instead of the addition of probiotics. It isn't a matter of what situation they may be beneficial for in an adult chicken, you suggested it for chicks, which is dead wrong.

im not trying to tell anyone that im organic. I do use antibiotics from time to time. but you have to realize that antibiotics only combat infection. a healthy bird is less likely to become infected as their immune systems are stronger. also if they are healthy they will recover from wounds faster.

I'm well aware of how antibiotics work. If a bird's immune system can prevent the multiplication of certain bacteria that are harmful, that is great. That is not always the case, and thus, antibiotic therapy must be used. The bird recovers, and proper nutrition gets the bird's immune system back on track to resist future infection, or it dies. It is the overuse of antibiotics that microorganisms like bacteria, parasites, and fungi develop resistance to. I choose to use a high quality organic feed, I supplement vitamins, electrolytes, and probiotics. I don't seem to have the health problems many people face with their birds, but have encountered some of them which required parasiticides, antibiotics, coccidiostats which there are NO natural or organic remedies for.

its your choice if you want to use these or not. for caged birds I definatly recommend it.

It isn't a matter of choice. It is a matter of what promotes the health of animals we accept responsibility for.
Caged birds have much less risk of communicable diseases compared to birds on range. That is common knowledge. The solitary life of no activity, no sun and its activation of D3, and other vitamin/mineral deficiencies in many caged birds is a cause for disease. No amount of ACV, yogurt, garlic, or honey could improve either situation.

also, you will find that most people who have tried these methods swear by them as long as they use them for a period of time.

They should be attributing the reality of healthy birds to genetics, good nutrition, and a beneficial environment, instead of attributing that to some single remedy with little nutritional benefit like ACV.

also, remember birds are slightly more acidic than we are at optimum health. if you eat more acid you will become more acidic. a lot of feeds and even a lot of our water is alkaline. im not saying its right for everyone, but can be very beneficial for others.

Too much acidity in a bird invites a variety of neurological and digestive health problems as well. Calcium, for instance, does that by neutralizing ph levels in addition to preventing prolapse and good egg production. There are many beneficial antioxidants from things like garlic, anise, horseradish, brewers yeast, which are added to the more high quality feeds formulated at feed mills by those who know what they are doing. That, in addition to the proper balance of vitamins, minerals, electrolytes, and probiotics will do more for the health of your birds than any regiment of ACV in the water will.

Edited by staff

 

[loveourbirds]

sorry, but merck and Monsanto are two names I don't trust. every bag of premixed rations is missing something, or has a harmful ingredient. although this does happen even with custom mixes. I myself added to much black oil sunflower and made chickens way to fat.

I look back at your posts and find so many contradictory comments. "Caged birds have much less risk of communicable diseases compared to birds on range. That is common knowledge. The solitary life of no activity, no sun and its activation of D3, and other vitamin/mineral deficiencies in many caged birds is a cause for disease. No amount of ACV, yogurt, garlic, or honey could improve either situation." caged birds have a higher risk of communicable diseases within the flock. new diseases come in on wild birds, animals, new birds purchased, perhaps on equipment, or even from bad feed or conditions. one way to prove this, caged birds all drink from the same waterer (usually) in nature they will choose different areas to drink. you are right about the lack of d vitamins from no sun. i personally do not recommend keeping birds in cages all the time. i do let mine out to get sun, grass, and bugs. 3 things that are irreplaceable to chickens.

ACV does not eliminate pasty droppings. All chicks experience pastiness as their digestive system develops from the yolk they carry from the egg for the first few days, to the change in diet. If you give sugar water for 3 days, it is no wonder your chicks pasted up. i agree about that cause of pasty butt. but my directions said to give the sugar water to the chicks after, not before. when a chick gets pasty butt, sometimes it holds manure inside of the chick. this is a method of cleaning the system of the chick out. after a cleanse like this probiotics are good, but should not be overdone. you are basically removing what is bad, replacing it with good and hoping for the best.

ACV will not aid absorption of calcium or vitamins simply because it breaks them down quickly. What's to say it isn't depleting the animal of the needed calcium and vitamins? I've actually searched for proof of this notion. None out there. Just claims with no substance. how is a vitamin absorbed? by breaking it down. i will agree that to much acv is bad for a chicken, if you get its ph to low, you may indeed start dissolving bone, or needed egg calcium. as a rule of thumb however, if oyster shell or substitutable calcium is offered free range, the hens will eat what they need.

i have seen on my farm, what happens when birds get immune to antibiotics. this is a lot of what made me start studying the nutrition of birds. ive been studying nutrition of humans for a while. 18-20 years i guess.

you and i are on the same track, just going about it in 2 different ways from what i can see. your trust in science scares me a little, but others might find it reassuring.

just so you know, i reviewed the information on feed that you posted. yours might be fine, but any time i have gotten feed with crushed limestone i have found it to have an absorbed ph of about 7.5.

as far as illness, yes ive had it here, on the average spring we hatch 100-300 chicks weekly, i also order in another 5000-6000 more. when you have as many birds pass through your hands as i do (and you quarantine and don't sell your birds if illness is present like i do) you pretty much learn what works. but as i said before, what works for me; may be wrong for you. on adult birds in 2012 i lost 7 that's out of 300-350 permanent breeders on this farm. 2 of the 7 were over 8 years old. 3 died over a bad windstorm over last winter, the wind ripped some plastic and funneled in on some OEGB that i raise. 2 were egg bound due to the overuse of black oil sunflower seed that i mentioned. the year before coryza came in on some birds who were carriers, those birds, and any birds exposed were removed from the flock. as far as chicks go, we typically lose 300-400 in an average year. we lose several to piling when they get removed from the brooders. i repositioned some lights and this has been a lot better this year. some don't take to feed or water, and some (especially late hatches) i cull due to bad legs or other problems. if i lose 400, i would put the loss of about 50 to illness/pasty butt/other.

as a professor of husbandry you should realize that there are dna and rna viruses, also environmental issues. some are by far easier cured than others. we both have agreed that healthy chickens will get over illness quicker. but there is also a time to cull your birds, if the illness is something that is detrimental to the overall being of the chicken, or to others in the flock its time to cull.

 

[loveourbirds]

i apologize to the OP of this thread for the arguments. you will find that a lot of us have different ideas. good luck with the chicks, and enjoy watching them grow.

as you go along you will try different things, and find what works for you. all of us on this site are just giving our opinions as "chicken farmers". in a lot of ways we were making this sound like a science. chickens should not be thought of as a science, but as pets/family members/farm animals. that choice is yours. as it will be your choice to believe in the scientific methods, or the old timer's methods. i personally do mix both methods to make the one that works for me.

you will do your best with your chickens im sure. you will lose some along the way and this is part of it. as you lose them more than likely it will spark your curiosity and lead you to a method that overcomes the problem. chickens have no friends in nature. disease, health problems (due to inbreeding or poor breeding), and predator attacks will be something you have to face as you move along with this fascinating hobby.

if your interested in the more natural methods and feeds, look for articles from beekissed on this site. they are well worth the read. this is one of my favorites https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...want-to-follow-their-progress/80#post_9676944

 

[Sharon Bee]

Wow, lots to consider. I'm getting 10 little chicks in 4 days. Yikes. My country store provides medicated feed which is made at a local co-op. I bought a 50 lb. bag.

 

[Judy]

Wow, lots to consider. I'm getting 10 little chicks in 4 days. Yikes. My country store provides medicated feed which is made at a local co-op. I bought a 50 lb. bag.

Most people no doubt simply buy what is locally available, as you did and as I do, and trust that it was formulated responsibly by people who know what they are doing. Ovviously, nutrition and supplements are complex subjects. This thread could go on for pages, debating the various aspects and types of feeds and supplements that people use. I would suggest that you not let these overwhelm you, and investigate them as you choose.

I have a healthy, older flock, and they have mostly eaten various feeds sold locally. Mine do have some opportunity to forage, which may be more beneficial as something to do which they do naturally, than for its nutrition. They get leftovers from time to time, and black oil sunflower seeds (instead of scratch) in small quantities as a treat, because they are reasonably nutritious and the chickens love them. Many people never feed anything but store bought feed, with success. People give treats to teach them to come when called or for similar training reasons, or just because they like to feel their chickens are getting something special, or for the fun of watching them attack the treat. I worm mine once a year, but I know for a fact there are worms in my soil. I watch for lice / mites, but have never had to treat for them. I have tried some other things, including organic ACV, and I'm not saying any of them are bad, but then I didn't stay with any of them, either.

AT Hagan had excellent beginners' advice in post #6. You can make chicken keeping as complex or as simple as you wish. Mostly, just be sure you relax and enjoy them!

 

[ChickensAreSweet]

One thing that I don't think anyone mentioned is that if you do choose to use ACV (which I don't and never have) make sure you don't use a galvanized metal waterer. Use plastic.

 

[Sharon Bee]

Yes I have a plastic water container. I found the raw ACV this weekend. Should I give it to my new chicks immediately? They are arriving in two days!

 

[cmom]

Here is some good information. http://poultrykeeper.com/health-suppliments/apple-cider-vinegar