New Dust Bath!

[nuthatched]

I have read so very many opinions and anecdotal stories that go both ways on the use of DE. I've read of people who've raised chickens for eons and have used DE with great success, and I've read those who won't touch the stuff. Seems the big concern is the development of respiratory issues. Does anyone have any evidence that this has been a problem in the short life span of a chicken? I ask with all sincerity because I don't like to do anything that harms them. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? People put chemicals into their bodies all the time thinking it's good for them in the big scheme of things (unconstitutional government mandates included), knowing full well that the side effects are often worse than the malady they are trying to treat, so the answer must really lie in looking at all the information, and just making an educated decision. I'm still in the "gathering information" stage, but DE seems to be a good thing from what I've read.

It isn’t a good thing, I've put it the research. ( it was quite the rabbit hole)

D.E. is classified as a Class 3 Carcinogen, while normally harmless, it is highly recommended by the distributors of this product that you wear a mask or respirator and goggles when working with or around D.E., as with any fine dust. After inhalation of D.E., mild irritation may occur in the respiratory system, mucus membranes, and lungs but it will be rapidly eliminated from lung tissue. However, with daily exposure, minor amounts can accumulate in lung tissue and lymph nodes, causing minor to moderate scarring and/or silicosis in mammalian respiratory systems. Since the Avian respiratory system is much more complex than ours, taking up most of a bird's body, excess dust entering the respiratory system can form caseous (damaged or necrotic tissue that has cheesy consistency) tracheal plugs in the bronchi junction (where the lungs connect to the trachea), obstructing breathing. Very few Diatomaceous Earth deposits are considered to produce pure "food grade" products, and that can change from layer to layer in the mine as it's excavated.

 

[aart]

I have read so very many opinions and anecdotal stories that go both ways on the use of DE.

Yeppers. But the main thing is it's not any good against poultry parasites, either to prevent or eradicate, so why take the respiratory risk?
But you do what you want....but have a some permethrin on hand in case the bugs git yer critters.

 

[Soujrnr]

Thank you all so much for your knowledge and comments!! I will definitely give this a lot more consideration. I'm very new to all of this and I humbly bow to your expertise!

 

[Soujrnr]

My wife and I talked about the DE issue some more, and we decided to just forego the DE and stick to using good sand in the dust bath, and stick with the best hygiene practices that we can (given the fact that we're dealing with chickens). We are diligent to keep the coop "clean," give them fresh water, feed them with good stuff, give them treats, and we let them free range daily. I'm no chicken psychologist, but I think they are very happy as they scour the yard for tasty morsels and such. We keep them supplied with plenty of Japanese beetles that we catch, and our son and daughter-in-law also bring over bags full of Japanese beetles for the girls as well. Their eggs are delicious, and the shells are very hard and robust.

 

[raspberrychicken]

It isn’t a good thing, I've put it the research. ( it was quite the rabbit hole)

I would love the citation for this! I googled it using exact quotes and nothing came up except this post.

Here is what I found regarding the topic of carcinogenic DE:

"Most diatomaceous earth is made of amorphous silicon dioxide. However, it can contain very low levels of crystalline silicon dioxide. Amorphous diatomaceous earth has not been associated with any cancers in people." (National Pesticide Information Center)

However, it's odd to me that you say "It isn't a good thing," and then proceed to quote what is really a very benign statement about DE--that inhaling enough of it can be carcinogenic under daily load (which, like the Round Up thing, is more about repeated, heavy exposure, like being forced to breathe DE for an hour every day (NPIC), and not what most people or even chickens would actually be doing), and it just warns to use a respirator, like all DE products and proponents recommend.

And even then:

"A very small amount of crystalline diatomaceous earth may be found in pesticide products. Long-term inhalation of the crystalline form is associated with silicosis, chronic bronchitis, and other respiratory problems. The bulk of diatomaceous earth is amorphous, not crystalline. The amorphous form is only associated with mild, reversible lung inflammation." (NPIC)

And just, like, ALL the things you can do with DE yourself:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1531/diatomaceous-earth (Check out their references for more reading, if you're skeptical of webmd itself--can't blame you if you are!)

Yeppers. But the main thing is it's not any good against poultry parasites, either to prevent or eradicate, so why take the respiratory risk?
But you do what you want....but have a some permethrin on hand in case the bugs git yer critters.

Again, would love a citation for this.

Here are a bunch of links that say the opposite.

"Is 'food grade' diatomaceous earth okay for pest control? - For certain pests, like bed bugs, testing is required to show that the product is effective under ideal circumstances." (NPIC)

"Relative to controls, both breeds of hens that were dusted with DE had reduced number of mites." (NCBI)

"Diatomaceous earth also enables pullets to cope with Ascaridia galli load;" (European Journal of Agriculture and Food Science)

"The study concluded that diatomaceous earth is an effective adsorbent to decrease the toxic adverse effects of ochratoxin in broiler chicken." (International Journal of Veterinary Sciences and Animal Husbandry)

"Diatomaceous earth (DE) without acaricides was at least as effective as DE supplemented with pyrethrum or essential oils and a liquid formulation of silica in vitro. In on farm experiments, DE was effective during a limited period only, whereas the liquid formulation had a very good residual effect over several weeks." (Independent researchers only? https://orgprints.org/7274/1/Maurer_Dermanyssus_Odense.pdf) - This one even points to more studies.

But the above research is actually backed up in another study I found on my own, and both of them appear to be essentially saying "Organic DE is effective, but liquid Silica (or Si-CO2) is both faster and more effective over a longer span of time." Like, the organic DE works! For certain parasites, at least. But other products are more effective.

I'm not here to advocate for yea or nay. I am not even here to argue someone's experience. Maybe DE didn't work for you or really irritated your chicken's respiratory systems! That's legit!

I AM here to illuminate the scientific facts and prevent misinformation.

I was so frustrated reading a ton of BYC threads where people were definitively stating that DE WILL GIVE YOU CANCER or that it does absolutely nothing for pests (hey... that's you, aart! Still claiming this 5 years later?), here's another "it does nothing", or "It's bad." (end of claim), or even "I feed my entire family with it and now we can lift cars with our pinky fingers"-type claims. (I saw more of the negative claims than I did positive ones, but both are bad!). And no backup to show for it other than, sometimes, their own experience. And sometimes not even that.

 

[aart]

that it does absolutely nothing for pests (hey... that's you, aart! Still claiming this 5 years later?)

Yeppers.

If there are internal or external parasites/pests, best to use a proven treatment.

 

[raspberrychicken]

Yeppers.

If there are internal or external parasites/pests, best to use a proven treatment.

I'm confused. It is proven?

I'm definitely not arguing that there aren't better treatments (both in terms of efficacy and in terms of "safety"). Just that this one is pretty well proven.

 

[aart]

I'm confused. It is proven?

I'm definitely not arguing that there aren't better treatments (both in terms of efficacy and in terms of "safety"). Just that this one is pretty well proven.

Not sure about 'proof' either way, but have read enough real life scenarios to not need 'proof'. Like terrible infestations of lice and mites written about by the keepers who are astounded their birds have been infested by saying "but I used DE everywhere all the time".

I once had some maggots gathered on top of a poop bucket, I covered them thickly with DE, they were all still alive a week later. I have successfully used DE in feed storage where grain mites are present, and it does work but takes a few days to have a real impact even tho they are very fragile.

 

[nuthatched]

I would love the citation for this! I googled it using exact quotes and nothing came up except this post.

Here is what I found regarding the topic of carcinogenic DE:

"Most diatomaceous earth is made of amorphous silicon dioxide. However, it can contain very low levels of crystalline silicon dioxide. Amorphous diatomaceous earth has not been associated with any cancers in people." (National Pesticide Information Center)

However, it's odd to me that you say "It isn't a good thing," and then proceed to quote what is really a very benign statement about DE--that inhaling enough of it can be carcinogenic under daily load (which, like the Round Up thing, is more about repeated, heavy exposure, like being forced to breathe DE for an hour every day (NPIC), and not what most people or even chickens would actually be doing), and it just warns to use a respirator, like all DE products and proponents recommend.

And even then:

"A very small amount of crystalline diatomaceous earth may be found in pesticide products. Long-term inhalation of the crystalline form is associated with silicosis, chronic bronchitis, and other respiratory problems. The bulk of diatomaceous earth is amorphous, not crystalline. The amorphous form is only associated with mild, reversible lung inflammation." (NPIC)

And just, like, ALL the things you can do with DE yourself:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1531/diatomaceous-earth (Check out their references for more reading, if you're skeptical of webmd itself--can't blame you if you are!)


Again, would love a citation for this.

Here are a bunch of links that say the opposite.

"Is 'food grade' diatomaceous earth okay for pest control? - For certain pests, like bed bugs, testing is required to show that the product is effective under ideal circumstances." (NPIC)

"Relative to controls, both breeds of hens that were dusted with DE had reduced number of mites." (NCBI)

"Diatomaceous earth also enables pullets to cope with Ascaridia galli load;" (European Journal of Agriculture and Food Science)

"The study concluded that diatomaceous earth is an effective adsorbent to decrease the toxic adverse effects of ochratoxin in broiler chicken." (International Journal of Veterinary Sciences and Animal Husbandry)

"Diatomaceous earth (DE) without acaricides was at least as effective as DE supplemented with pyrethrum or essential oils and a liquid formulation of silica in vitro. In on farm experiments, DE was effective during a limited period only, whereas the liquid formulation had a very good residual effect over several weeks." (Independent researchers only? https://orgprints.org/7274/1/Maurer_Dermanyssus_Odense.pdf) - This one even points to more studies.

But the above research is actually backed up in another study I found on my own, and both of them appear to be essentially saying "Organic DE is effective, but liquid Silica (or Si-CO2) is both faster and more effective over a longer span of time." Like, the organic DE works! For certain parasites, at least. But other products are more effective.

I'm not here to advocate for yea or nay. I am not even here to argue someone's experience. Maybe DE didn't work for you or really irritated your chicken's respiratory systems! That's legit!

I AM here to illuminate the scientific facts and prevent misinformation.

I was so frustrated reading a ton of BYC threads where people were definitively stating that DE WILL GIVE YOU CANCER or that it does absolutely nothing for pests (hey... that's you, aart! Still claiming this 5 years later?), here's another "it does nothing", or "It's bad." (end of claim), or even "I feed my entire family with it and now we can lift cars with our pinky fingers"-type claims. (I saw more of the negative claims than I did positive ones, but both are bad!). And no backup to show for it other than, sometimes, their own experience. And sometimes not even that.

I'm happy you did some actual digging for your own decision, too many people just plug something into google and come back with a bunch of blogs.
You couldn't find the citation since it was my statement, not quoting anyone else. I bungled my copying it from another page.
I was researching worming specifically but it spun out into a rabbit hole on DE, though it was still informative. I'm going to go deeper into endoparasites when I have the time.
Chickens have a very sensitive respiratory system, they can get respiratory issues even with their own dander if their coop is not well ventilated.
It's true amorphous silica is usually classed as benign *in sporadic or light uses aka approved use * but it is hazardous to breathe in continuous use, especially for the complex system that birds have, such as when chickens roll around and do the "bathing cha-cha", which they generally do at least once a day though I observe mine doing it up to 3 times a day.
The issue with studies regarding DE on poultry is that the studies are aimed for the commercial poultry industry, they are short, only lasting as long as it would realistically take for a meat bird to hit Market weight at about 3-4 months and for egg birds, which are processed as soon as their egg laying starts to diminish at 18 months to two years.
I've not seen any study for longer than those periods to prove or disprove any long term affects. (On any aspect of poultry, truthfully)
I've also never seen it be effective on insects, I've poured it on ant hills, maggots and stick tight fleas with no effect even after a few days. And if you live in a damp area where it's above 75% humidity, it will be useless, as stated on the bag by the distributors.
Now, if you also cycle cull birds after 2 summers for production you're likely to never have any issues. But after that 2 year period, there's no telling what will happen.
Likely nothing. But with the information we can find regarding the Avian respiratory system and info on silica toxicosis in general, I'm going to stand on a hill and say that the possibility of serious side-effects are too high for me to recommend it.

https://extension.psu.edu/poultry-dust-what-you-need-to-know-about-impact-on-bird-health http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html Permin, A., Christensen, J.P. & Bisgaard, M. Consequences of concurrent Ascaridia galli and Escherichia Coli infections in chickens. Acta Vet Scand 47, 43 (2006). https://doi.org/10.1186/1751-0147-47-43 Avian Respiratory System, Jacquie Jacob and Tony Pescatore, Animal Sciences. Cooperative Extension Service, University of Kentucky- College of Agriculture, Food, and Environment. www.ca.uky.edu/agcomm/pubs/ASC/ASC200/ASC200.pdfCostantini LM, Gilberti RM, Knecht DA. The phagocytosis and toxicity of amorphous silica. PLoS One. 2011 Feb 2;6(2):e14647. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0014647. PMID: 21311600; PMCID: PMC3032735. Sandberg WJ, Låg M, Holme JA, Friede B, Gualtieri M, Kruszewski M, Schwarze PE, Skuland T, Refsnes M. Comparison of non-crystalline silica nanoparticles in IL-1β release from macrophages. Part Fibre Toxicol. 2012 Aug 10;9:32. doi: 10.1186/1743-8977-9-32. PMID: 22882971; PMCID: PMC3441334.
Torres, A.; Collin-Faure, V.; Fenel, D.; Sergent, J.-A.; Rabilloud, T. About the Transient Effects of Synthetic Amorphous Silica: An In Vitro Study on Macrophages. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2023, 24, 220. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms24010220
Athanassiou, C. G., N.G. Kavallieratos, B.J. Vayias, Z. Tomanovi, A. Petrovi, V. Rozman, C. Adler, Z. Korunic and D. Milovanovi. 2011. Laboratory evaluation of diatomaceous earth deposits mined from several locations in central and southeastern Europe as potential protectants against coleopteran grain pests.Crop Protection. 30:329-339

 

[Soujrnr]

Great dialogue, friends!! This is all AWESOME information and commentary on DE! This is what it's all about...sharing ideas, information, studies, etc., and doing so in a civilized manner!!

I think I mentioned earlier that I've read a zillion anecdotal stories about DE with people weighing in on both ends of the spectrum. So far, we haven't noticed anything abnormal in any of our girls. All we do is feed them good food, clean water every day, free ranging in the yard every day, and occasional treats. I inspected them last night after they all got up on the roost and found no signs of any bugs, mites, ticks, etc., on their skin. The vents are "clean" (except for one, but I'm not sure if it's crusty butt or just leftovers from laying. I'll post a picture later to see what you all think).

All that being taken into consideration, we're just going to keep on doing what we're doing until something comes up, and then look at causes. Does that sound like a viable plan? It's kind of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" idea. We're going to hold off on the DE for now. Also, it was mentioned that it is useless in high humidity. We live in a very humid location. The other day it was 99%. It is almost always 50% or higher (much higher). So, we'll just keep doing all the good things we've learned so far and see how that works out.