new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[3KillerBs]

You take it wrong. Your experience is not a reliable guide to the whole world. It's intensive rather than extensive cultivation, horticulture rather than agriculture.

Which is only possible in certain conditions of climate and geology and with the considerable input of low-cost labor that you've been talking about.

I would LOVE to have access to inexpensive, high-quality fresh vegetables.

However, today, in my late-50's, I physically *cannot* spend 8 hours on my feet on workdays and then spend my days off doing unpaid stoop labor to be paid in produce. I'm young to have as much arthritis as I have, but I'm genetically predisposed to it and damaged both my wrists and my back doing factory work.

Back in my youth I *could* have done that physically, but it wouldn't have been a wise investment in my time compared to other things I might have been doing -- including working in my own garden, educating my children at home, writing, etc.

 

[Geena]

You take it wrong. Your experience is not a reliable guide to the whole world. It's intensive rather than extensive cultivation, horticulture rather than agriculture.
Edited to add, we were talking about weekly veg. You seem to have jumped to whole food supply, which is a different thing entirely.

I didn't jump anywhere, you're the one that brought it up. I was just responding to what you said

I know my experience is not = to everyone's experience. I actually have wonderful rich soil and a pretty good growing season here, so I can likely produce more than a lot of other folks can. Much depends on what you are growing as well, things like corn and squash take up a lot more room than tomatoes or pole beans.

You make it sound like it's easy, but it's a LOT of work and as 3KillerBs pointed out not everyone has the ability to or has the time, energy, space or even desire to grow their own food.

 

[Perris]

I'm not responding to any more irrelevant, unsubstantiated and divisive posts by you two. You misinterpret what I write, do not answer directly the points I make, and continually evade the issues to focus instead on anything but the actual nutritive values of the food we each choose to buy, grow or eat.

 

[Perris]

This short and very recent open access paper draws attention to a number of relevant issues, for example the microbiome variation between different populations (akin to different chicken breeds), different cultures (akin to confined or free range or feral), and that caused by geographical dislocation (akin to buying birds in from elsewhere, especially over considerable distances).

It's also encouraging in citing reports where changes in eating habits improved health outcomes.

'Human microbiome variance' Shanahan, Ghosh and O’Toole
Current Opinion in Microbiology 2023, 73:102288

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mib.2023.102288

 

[3KillerBs]

I'm not responding to any more irrelevant, unsubstantiated and divisive posts by you two. You misinterpret what I write, do not answer directly the points I make, and continually evade the issues to focus instead on anything but the actual nutritive values of the food we each choose to buy, grow or eat.

Cost is NOT irrelevant.

 

[Sally PB]

'Human microbiome variance' Shanahan, Ghosh and O’Toole
Current Opinion in Microbiology 2023, 73:102288

Very interesting read.

 

[Geena]

I'm not responding to any more irrelevant, unsubstantiated and divisive posts by you two. You misinterpret what I write, do not answer directly the points I make, and continually evade the issues to focus instead on anything but the actual nutritive values of the food we each choose to buy, grow or eat.

Come on now @Perris, play fair, you make as many "irrelevant and unsubstantiated" posts as anyone else. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything you post doesn't mean they are being divisive. We are merely sharing our thoughts and experiences, as are you and everyone else here. Isn't that what these forums are for?

 

[Perris]

This is a really good open access paper on the importance of fibre in the diet for chicken health:

'Dietary fiber and chicken microbiome interaction', Tahir Mahmood, Yuming Guo
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.aninu.2019.11.004

I would draw attention especially to the comments that (p.2) "Conventionally, dietary fiber was considered a diluent of poultry diet with a negative link to voluntary feed intake and nutrient digestibility (Mateos et al., 2012; Jha et al., 2019). Therefore, diets were formulated with crude fiber not exceeding 3%."

And (p.6) "it is quite evident that favorable microbiota can exert beneficial effects on the host including better growth performance and immune status, whereas hostile microbiota can lead to enteric disease that can not only reduce the growth performance but also increase the mortality of the flock...the diet is the chief regulator of the chicken gut microbiome and should be considered much more seriously...It is encouraging to note that a lot of work is being carried out to understand the dynamics of the microbial ecosystem of the gut and how it is linked with gut health. In this regard, many feed additives are being tested for their potential to modulate the intestinal microbiome. However, the inherent dietary macro-ingredients of the diet are the chief regulator of the gut ecosystem and require much greater attention. The bulk of the work has been and is still being done on the role of fiber in human gut microbial modulation nutrition, this trend is relatively new in animal nutrition." (emphasis added)

 

[Geena]

Interesting article.

This is something I've been experimenting with since I started keeping chickens. It bothered me to raise chicks in a brooder for three or four weeks and feeding them only easily digestible and comparatively sterile crumbles..
I felt that they needed a variety of different foodstuffs to challenge and develop a good working gut, and various microbes and bacteria to build up a good immune system as they were growing.

I don't feed them treats and such from the store, but go out and dig up shovels full of sod with a hefty amount of dirt from different areas of the property. I started out introducing it to them at two weeks, but now I do it right away, as soon as they are transferred from the incubator to the brooding area.

It really does seem to make a difference in their overall health. I never have sickly, weak or runty chickens. Other than those few that hatch out very poorly and they are promptly dispatched.
Of course, doing it that way, I also risk exposing them to harmful things as well, but thankfully that hasn't been a problem as of yet.

@Perris , you have your chicks out loose with the adults from day one don't you?

 

[ManueB]

This is a really good open access paper on the importance of fibre in the diet for chicken health:

'Dietary fiber and chicken microbiome interaction', Tahir Mahmood, Yuming Guo
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.aninu.2019.11.004

I would draw attention especially to the comments that (p.2) "Conventionally, dietary fiber was considered a diluent of poultry diet with a negative link to voluntary feed intake and nutrient digestibility (Mateos et al., 2012; Jha et al., 2019). Therefore, diets were formulated with crude fiber not exceeding 3%."

And (p.6) "it is quite evident that favorable microbiota can exert beneficial effects on the host including better growth performance and immune status, whereas hostile microbiota can lead to enteric disease that can not only reduce the growth performance but also increase the mortality of the flock...the diet is the chief regulator of the chicken gut microbiome and should be considered much more seriously...It is encouraging to note that a lot of work is being carried out to understand the dynamics of the microbial ecosystem of the gut and how it is linked with gut health. In this regard, many feed additives are being tested for their potential to modulate the intestinal microbiome. However, the inherent dietary macro-ingredients of the diet are the chief regulator of the gut ecosystem and require much greater attention. The bulk of the work has been and is still being done on the role of fiber in human gut microbial modulation nutrition, this trend is relatively new in animal nutrition." (emphasis added)

I agree, it's very interesting and raise a lot of different points.
Incidentally it mentions wood shavings as a source of fiber and I've been wondering for a few weeks why one of my hens eats some every night from the bucket where I keep those, just before roosting

Of course, doing it that way, I also risk exposing them to harmful things as well, but thankfully that hasn't been a problem as of yet.

@Perris , you have your chicks out loose with the adults from day one don't you?

I've only had one hatch so it's not very significant, they were outside from day one with the rest of the flock. They roosted separately though.
The four survived healthily, even one runt girl, and are now 10 months old. Interestingly I've discovered since I have both roundworms and tape worms in my environment but the chicks only showed sign of them when the adults did, at around three months old.